William Cole of Cornwall - Problems with early Cole family

Started by Private User on Sunday, July 12, 2020
Showing all 18 posts

I see that nearly a year ago I was trying to get the Cole line cleaned up -- here's that discussion --

Cola, Ethelweard's High Reeve

I came across them again today, and things are still not ok.

Here's a precis of the problems:

The profile I'm starting this discussion from -- William Cole of Cornwall -- is attested to in the Assizes of 1201, so yay -- but exactly the same information is given for his son William Cole of Cornwall who is married to a woman with the same name as his mother -- and it's not an entirely common name, so this is probably not true.

Going up:

His father is given as William Cole, Saxon lord of Devonshire -- ok, though I don't think we have evidence for him -- please provide, if you have it; I can't find it -- and my problem further is that he's called both a Saxon Lord and a Baron. I don't see how he can be both. Either he's a baron, instituted by the Normans, or he's a Saxon lord, though in that case why his name is William I'm not clear. I see this information all across the web, but I can't find where it comes from. Indeed, I can find no evidence that we know the lineage of the William mentioned just above. He shows up in the Assize rolls. We don't know who his parents were. I doubt sincerely that one of them was William, the Saxon lord and Baron, born nearly 100 years after the Normans arrived. If there is real evidence, we should definitely put it into Geni.

Everything I can find that isn't a web tree starts the real history of the Coles with William and Ysabella, thus -- https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Genealogy_of_the_Family_of...

We go up a couple of generations, still no evidence, and we get to

Baron William Cole, KNT

Now, this totally makes no sense.

Cole is indeed an English name (when it isn't bein Welsh -- this line has NO connection to Old King Cole, who is this person -- Coel Hen ap Tegfan, King of Northern Britain -- for many many reasons, but let's me not digress) -- So, this person could be English. But the English at that time did not use surnames. And they for SURE did not call themselves things like "William," which is a Norman name. Since the Normans hadn't arrived yet and taken everything over.

This is an impossible name. He did not exist. Also he wasn't a baron, and he wasn't a knight. Because those things did not exist in that place at that time.

All of that's if he's English. But what if he's Norman, and came with William the Conqueror? Well, in that case he wouldn't be born in Devonshire, for one thing. Also the name Cole doesn't show up in Normandy.

Also, there WAS a Cole who is mentioned at the time of William the Conqueror, in a deed from 1070. But the deed is written in Old English, so it was certainly not meant for Normans. Who didn't learn Old English. Because they didn't feel like it.

So, as I say, I don't think he existed. He's certainly an interesting anomaly if he did.

No, he didn't.

Next up! His dad!

I mentioned this in the last discussion, but I see he's still hanging around. We really need to fix this.

He is Cola, Ethelweard's High Reeve -- General James Cole, born in 1001 in England.

No! No he wasn't!

James is not a name in 1001 in England. It just isn't. It can't be shoehorned into history.

The Old English certainly knew Jacobus, which is what the name came from, since it's in the Bible, but they didn't use that either. Normans. That's who was using that name.

Also, for goodness sake, he wasn't a general. The English didn't have generals. They had reeves.

But this is a minor point, since he wasn't there in the first place.

Oh, and his nonexistent mother is named Elma. Since that wasn't used as a name for several hundred years after, I'm thinking probably not.

At any rate.

Erica Howton -- can you weigh in on this?

You curate the two Williams who are married to Ysabella --

my recommendation is to cut the line off above William married to Ysabella -- and that should be only one profile, not two.

But we have a father for Gen Cole, he was Justice Cole! :).

http://ephotocaption.com/a/95/95.html

Generations of Cole

GENERATION 1
JUSTICE COLE – B 0935 England D (?) England M Spouse unknown
Children of Justice Cole
General Cole B 0980 England M Spouse unknown

GENERATION 2
GENERAL COLE – B 0980 England D (?) England M Spouse unknown
Children of General Cole
William Cole – Knight B 1040 Hempshire, England D (?) 1070
Additional Information; General Cole was famous for his defeat of the Sweyne, Chieftain of the Danes at Pinhoe in 1001. Devon, Somerset and Dorset combined forces and were lead by General Cole.
GENERATION 3
KNIGHT WILLIAM COLE – B 1040 Hempshire, England D 1070 Hutensleigh, Devonshire, England
M Spouse unknown
Children of William Cole;
Knight William Cole II B 1065 Cornwall, Devon, England

—-

This family tree is available in GEDCOM format at:

Coles of Devon GEDCOM

Please don’t download ....

Regarding the earliest Coles, the old Cole genealogy states:

"It hath been asserted that this family derives its origin from Coel, the founder of Colchester, one of the Kings of Britain. Yet without claiming as its patriarch either this renowned descendant of Caractacus, or the Justice Cole, who lived in the reign of King Alfred, or the valiant General Cola, who, in command of the united forces of Devon, Somerset, and Dorset, defeated at Pinhoe, in 1001, Sweyne, the savage Chieftain of the Danes, its high antiquity and rank amongst the magnates of the land in Saxon times are attested by Domesday Book, and, by" a 1070 deed of King William the Conqueror to Bishop Walkelin, written in the Saxon language, and translated into English in 1587, in which "'William, King, greetes Walkesein, Bishop, and Hugon de Port, and Edward Knighte, Steward, and Algesime and Symon and Allfus, Porveiour, and Cole and Arderne and all the Barons in Hampshire and Wiltshire..."[2]

As noted above, the Domesday Book lists "Cola" as holding land in both Wiltshire and Devon. It is this Cola whom the author of the old Cole genealogy takes to be the progenitor of the Cole family that appears on Devon's border with Cornwall in the early thirteenth century.

—-

But starting “genealogical history” with
William Cole of Cornwall

Yep. clearly the famaily has older roots (as don't we all)

But we don't know how they connect to Cola -- or if this is even the right far away progenitor.

thanks

Regarding the GEDCOM which naturally I did not go see --

AAAAAUGH!

Which I say in response to Justice Cole and General Cole, the imminent, and highly prescient, English men who lived before the Norman invasion but had names like they were living in the 17th century.. Because why not.

My little digression which I didn't goon above cause I was being all calm and whatnot, was the very common, and fairly old, assumption that the Coles descend from Old King Cole.

If you click on the link I give up above, you can see that this makes no sense whatsoever, since he was Welsh and not English, BUT Coel is his first name, not a surname, which the English weren't using either, and Coel disappears immediately following the next generation.

But it is all over the web, and in printed antiquarian books.

It is not true.

Didn’t high Reeve Kola (not the soda) “lose” the battle of Pinhoe? Why do the genealogies say he defeated Sweyne?

Anyway this is a Devon family, not Welsh.

Because the genealogies that you are referring to live in a romantic time where you could make up nonsense.

Lots and lots of it.

I agree with above. the main lines of Coles are definitely English, maybe Norman mixed. No Welsh descent.as far as I know and definitely no connection to the Welsh King Cole or Coel. Is Justice even a Saxon name? Be careful of some of the Peerage books that are out there, they tend to stretch the truth a little.

Private User "Which I say in response to Justice Cole and General Cole, the imminent, and highly prescient, English men who lived before the Norman invasion but had names like they were living in the 17th century.. Because why not."

I almost fell out my chair laughing on that!!

Its almost like the mysterious Henricus De Tolson who was supposedly a Saxon Chieftain from Burkes Peerage that said he had a large hall in Cumbria that was two levels and he entertained his guests from the second level around 890 AD. Then Burkes skips over a few generations for a charter singing giving his descendant of the same name that very land. I have yet to find anything about the musterious cheiftan outside of Burkes. If someone DOES have more material or evidence, please come forward. Been looking for a few years now...

Ha! Henricus de Tolson is another impossible name.

Not because his name is in Latin — the English knew Latin at that time and used it in records — but because his name is Henry, and nobody born in England was given the name Henry in the 9th century.

I will see what I can figure out!

So I went to look at the passage in Burke’s — it’s the Tolson family. Erica Howton — here’s the link — https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_Genealogical_and_Heraldic_Hi...

And this is astonishing.

And I see it repeated elsewhere, because of course usually Burke is pretty reliable, but it makes no sense whatsoever.

Burke says that there is a deed from 859, in Cumbria, bearing the names Henricus, Gulielmi de Koknat, Alice de Vumeley, and Latcey. What all these people with Norman names were doing wandering around Cumbria in 859 I do not know.

Now that I come to think of it, they weren’t even Normans, since at that time the Normans were still being Vikings. And these people wouldn’t have been French either, since we are just past the end of the Carolingian empire here.

So, no.

Were there Saxon lords in 859 in Cumbria? Yes there were. Well, sort of. It’s the Angles who were in Cumbria. But that’s close enough. Let’s roll with that.

But they were named things like Edgfrith and Cuthbert and Hereweald (which would become Harold, a bit later). Things like that. They were not named Henry and William and Alice. What the hell the Latcey is I have no idea.

But Burke says there is a deed!

And what it would be is one of the Anglo-Saxon charters. They were written in Latin, with often an addition at the end in Old English.

And because they were written in Latin, often Old English names got translated.

So.

There was no Saxon lord named Henry in 859.

But there were Saxon lords named Hereweald. There were no Alices, but there were Aelfwyns. There were no Williams, but there were Wolfrics.

In other words.

You will never find Henry, cause he wasn’t there. He had some other name.

Awesome good luck. I am checking "early yorkshire charters" on archive.org also for clues. Supposedly the area was granted to Gisbourough Priory at one time by one of the de Bruce family members..

There are over a thousand Anglo Saxon charters still extant, and they are well catalogued. So if it's still around you can find it.

But I expect that all the information that's available is already known. The only thing that could possibly add more is if there is an addition to the charter in Anglo Saxon, which might possible say the real names of the people concerned.

But it still won't get you the lineage.

I don’t see a reference to those names except for Burke’s. Love time & space travelers!

—-

Here’s where commander in chief Kola (we don’t know if) he leads to.

https://books.google.com/books?id=969AAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA14&ots...

What is the best site(web) for Anglo Saxon charters?

Very few have been digitized.

But some of them have been published, though the project may not have gotten them all --

A list of the volumes --

1. Charters of Rochester, ed. A. Campbell, 1973
2. Charters of Burton Abbey, ed. P. H. Sawyer, 1979
3. Charters of Sherborne, ed. M. A. O'Donovan, 1988
4. Charters of St Augustine's Abbey, Canterbury and Minster-in-Thanet, ed. S. E. Kelly, 1995
5. Charters of Shaftesbury Abbey, ed. S. E. Kelly, 1996
6. Charters of Selsey, ed. S. E. Kelly, 1998
7. Charters of Abingdon Abbey, Part 1, ed. S. E. Kelly, 2000
8. Charters of Abingdon Abbey, Part 2, ed. S. E. Kelly, 2001
9. Charters of the New Minster, Winchester, ed. Sean Miller, 2001
10. Charters of St Paul's, London, ed. S. E. Kelly, 2004
11. Charters of Malmesbury Abbey, ed. S. E. Kelly, 2005
12. Charters of St Albans, ed. Julia Crick, 2007
13. Charters of Bath and Wells, ed. S. E. Kelly, 2007
14. Charters of Peterborough Abbey, ed. S. E. Kelly, 2009
15. Charters of Glastonbury Abbey, ed. S. E. Kelly, 2012
16. Charters of Northern Houses, ed. D. A. Woodman, 2012
17. Charters of Christchurch, Canterbury, Part 1, ed. N. P. Brooks and S. E. Kelly, 2013
18. Charters of Christchurch, Canterbury, Part 2, ed. N. P. Brooks and S. E. Kelly, 2013
19. Charters of Chertsey Abbey, ed. S. E. Kelly, 2015
Supplementary volume
Facsimiles of Anglo-Saxon Charters, ed. Simon Keynes, 1991

The site for the project has many things you can look through -- https://web.archive.org/web/20050601083502/http://www.trin.cam.ac.u...

There are a few digitized at https://blogs.bl.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2018/07/anglo-saxon-charte...

Hey Private User I found this info on Bridekirk which was the seat of the Tolsons.

Bride-Kirk
BRIDE-KIRK, in the ward of Allerdale below Derwent, lies about two miles from Cockermouth, which is the post office town, and contains the townships of Bride-Kirk, Great-Broughton, Little-Broughton, Dovenby with Hameshill (fn. n21), Papcastle and the Goat, Ribton, and Tallantire. The total number of houses in this parish in 1811, was 333, that of inhabitants, 1552.

The manors of Bride-Kirk and Appleton, with the church of Bride-Kirk, were given by Waldeof, the first Lord of Allerdale, to Gisborne priory in Yorkshire; after the dissolution the manor was granted by King Henry VIII. to Henry Tolson. This manor has long ago been enfranchised. J. D. Ballantine Dykes, Esq. being proprietor of Bridekirk Hall, and a great part of the demesne lands, pays the fee farm rent of 1l. 6s. to the crown.

Woodhall, in this township, formerly the seat of the Tolsons, has been much improved by its present possessor John Sanderson Fisher, Esq. It stands in a beautiful situation, commanding a view of the windings of the Derwent, Cockermouth Castle, Isel Hall, and the mountains near Keswick. A handsome mansion in the village of Bride-Kirk, has lately been built by John Thompson, Esq. for his own residence.

King James, in 1605, granted the great tithes of Great and Little-Broughton, and Papcastle, late in the tenure of Thomas Lord Wharton, to Job Gillett and William Blake. The great tithes of Bride-Kirk township belong to John Sanderson Fisher, Esq. of Woodhall, those of Great and Little Broughton, to Sir Frederick Fletcher Vane, Baronet, those of Papcastle to J. D. B. Dykes, Esq. those of Ribton, Hameshill, and the Goat, to the Earl of Lonsdale, and those of Tallantire to William Browne, Esq.: the latter belonged to the monastery of Gisborne, and were granted by Queen Elizabeth to George Fletcher, Esq. of Tallantire.

The advowson of the vicarage, which was granted by Queen Mary to George Cotton and William Manne, passed soon afterwards to the Lamplughs of Dovenby, and is now vested in J. D. B. Dykes, Esq. The singularly curious font in Bride-Kirk church (fn. n22), has been already spoken of.

At Great-Broughton there is a Baptists meeting endowed with some land, in the township of Bothil, and there is a Quakers meeting house at LittleBroughton.

Sir Joseph Williamson, secretary of state in the reign of Charles II. and one of the plenipotentiaries at the treaties of Nimeguen and Ryswick, was a native of this place, being son of the Rev. Joseph Williamson, who was instituted to the vicarage in 1625: Sir Joseph was born in 1633. Thomas Tickell, the poet, the friend of Addison, and editor of his works, was also a native of Bride-Kirk, of which his father was vicar. He was baptized January 19th 1686-7. (fn. n23)

The manor of Broughton, including both the townships of that name, was given by Waldeof, Lord of Allerdale, in marriage with his sister, to Waldeof, son of Gilmin, whose posterity took the name of Broughton, and resided here for several generations. After this family became extinct, about the reign of Henry VI. Broughton seems to have reverted to the Earl of Northumberland as Lord of Allerdale. Henry, the sixth Earl of Northumberland, conveyed it to Sir Thomas Wharton. Charles, Duke of Somerset, purchased it of the trustees of the Duke of Wharton, and it is now vested in his representative the Earl of Egremont.

Joseph Ashley, Esq. in the year 1722, built a school house and an alms house for four poor persons at Great-Broughton, endowing the school with a close, now worth about 6l. per annum, and a rent charge of 8l. per annum. The poor of Great and Little-Broughton, and the donor's kindred, are to have the preference for the alms house, and persons of the name of Ashley to have the preference as trustees.

At Little-Broughton was born in 1714, Abraham Fletcher, the son of a tobacco-pipe maker, and brought up to his father's occupation, who by dint of his own self taught application, became a mathematician of no small eminence, and at the age of thirty set up as a school master; having studied also the medical properties of herbs, he united to his new profession that of a doctor, and practised both with such reputation and profit, that when he died, in the year 1793, he had bred up a large family and was possessed of 4000l. He was author of a work called the Universal Measurer.

The manor of Dovenby was given by Waldeof to Dolphin, son of Alward, whose posterity acquired the name of Dovenby, and became extinct in the reign of Henry III. when the heiress married Rawle or Rolle (fn. n24). Thomas Lucy was possessed of this manor in the reign of Edward I. it was afterwards in the Kirkbrides: the heiress of the latter, in the reign of Henry IV. married Lamplugh, in whose posterity this manor continued for several generations. It is now the property of William Browne, Esq. of Tallantire Hall, whose father purchased it together with part of the demesne, in 1777, of —— Mason, Esq. Dovenby Hall and part of the demesne, were purchased of the representatives of the Dovenby branch of the Lamplughs by Richard Lamplugh, Esq. of Ribton Hall (fn. n25). Dovenby Hall is now the property and seat of Joseph Dykes Ballantine Dykes, Esq. who married Miss Dykes, daughter of Frechville Dykes, Esq. by Mary, his wife, who was great grand-daughter in the female line (fn. n26) of Richard Lamplugh above mentioned. The grandson and namesake of this Richard, being the last of the name of Lamplugh, who possessed Dovenby Hall, died without issue in 1764.

In the year 1609 Sir Thomas Lamplugh built an hospital for four widows, and a school house, to the endowment of which his brother Richard gave the sum of 50l. It seems probable that the establishment was not completed till the year 1628, which date was on a stone at the west end of the hospital as the date of the foundation, together with 1609, the date of the building. Sir Thomas Lamplugh, by his deed of the year 1628, appoints the hospital to be for the perpetual residence of six poor religious people, men or women, of the parish of Bride-Kirk, and a master; who was also to be master of the free grammar school. Sir Thomas endowed it with all his tithes in the township of Redmain in Isel, and the tithe barn. A close in Dovenby, of about five acres, was purchased in 1715, with Richard Lamplugh's benefaction. In 1668 Sir Joseph Williamson, the secretary of state, gave 5l. per annum to this hospital; in 1665 it was endowed with a portion of tithes in Brough, a farther portion of tithes in Redmain, and received a donation of 60l.; the school house was rebuilt in 1678. The tithes of Redmain were given to the pensioners of the hospital, subject to the payment of 4l. per annum, to the master for reading prayers; the tithes of Brough are appropriated to the master: the tithes of Redmain, in the reign of Charles I. were let at 18l. per annum, and are said to be worth now about 30l.

The Rev. Thomas Hervey, born at Dovenby in 1740, published a treatise on short hand, in which he much excelled; a treatise on the 39 articles; an explanation of the church catechism, and other tracts. He left in MS. a treatise on the theory and practice of music on mathematical principles, and a new literal translation of the Old Testament with the Hebrew characters annexed. He was curate of Under-Barrow, near Kendall, for 40 years, to the time of his death, which happened in 1806.

Papcastle, which appears to have been a Roman station, was the seat of Waldeof, Lord of Allerdale, before he removed to Cockermouth. It was afterwards successively in the Lucies, Multons, and Dacres. Being vested in the crown by the attainder of Leonard Dacre, it was granted by Queen Elizabeth in 1595, to Lancelot Salkeld, Thomas Braithwaite, and Richard Tolson; soon afterwards this manor was the property of Sir Thomas Lamplugh, who settled it upon Agnes, his wife, daughter of the said Thomas Braithwaite for life (fn. n27). It was sold with the manor of Dovenby, by one of the Lamplughs, and has passed with that estate to William Browne, Esq. of Tallantire Hall, the present proprietor. Thomas Knight, Esq. is building a handsome mansion for his residence, on some ground lately purchased within or adjoining to the site of the Roman station; many antiquities have been discovered in sinking the foundations. The members for the county are always elected at a place called "the Goat," annexed to the township of Papcastle.

The manor of Ribton belonged to a family of that name, descended from a younger son of Waldeof, son of Gilmin before mentioned, the Ribtons continued to be possessed of it as late as the reign of Henry VIII.: it passed afterwards by purchase to the Lamplughs. Richard Lamplugh, Esq. sold it before the middle of the last century to Sir James Lowther, of Whitehaven, Baronet; it is now the property of the Earl of Lonsdale. The hall, which was a seat of the Lamplughs, and afterwards of the Lowthers, has been some time occupied as a farm house. Near Ribton Hall is the site of an ancient chapel, said to have been dedicated to St. Lawrence, with a cemetery adjoining; it went to decay during the civil war. (fn. n28)

The manor of Tallantire or Tallentire was granted by Waldeof, son of Gospatric, to Odard, son of Liulph, whose descendants took the name of Tallantire; at a later period (fn. n29) it came by purchase to the Fletchers of Cockermouth, from which family it passed by marriage to that of Partis of Newcastle. In the year 1776 it was purchased of Henry Hopper, devisee of Fletcher Partis, Esq. by William Browne, Esq. whose son of the same name, is the present proprietor, and resides at Tallantire Hall.

The parish of St. Bride or St. Bridgett, lies about ten miles from Whitehaven, and includes the township of Calder, where there is a post office at Calder Bridge. Calder Abbey, on the banks of the river Calder, nearly a mile above the bridge, was founded for Cistertian Monks in the year 1134, by Ranulph de Meschines, the second of that name. Its revenues at the time of the dissolution were valued at 50l. 9s. 3½d. per annum. The site, with the manor of Calder, &c. was granted in 1538, to Thomas Leigh, L.L. D. whose grandson Ferdinando sold this estate to Sir Richard Fletcher, Baronet; Barbara, daughter of Sir Richard, brought it in marriage to Mr. John Patrickson, whose son sold it to Mr. John Tiffin of Cockermouth. John Senhouse, Esq. grandson of Mr. Tiffin, became possessed of it by gift, and it is now the property and residence of Miss Mary Senhouse, his elder grand-daughter. There are considerable remains of the abbey adjoining the mansion, a modern brick edifice, pleasantly situated in the vale of the Calder, the banks of which are well skirted with wood.

Sella Park, said to have been formerly a cell belonging to Calder Abbey, where they had a deer park, was granted by the crown to the Curwen family. It was purchased of Mr. and Mrs. Curwen, by the late Mr. Stanley of Ponsonby Hall. This place is now the property of his son Edward Stanley, Esq. and in the occupation of the Rev. John Smith.

The manor of Great-Beckermot, in this parish, belongs to the Earl of Egremont, as parcel of the barony of Egremont.

The church of St. Brides, which is in the diocese of Chester, the archdeaconry of Richmond, and deanery of Copeland, was appropriated to Calder Abbey.

¶The impropriation, which, after the dissolution, was granted to the Flemings of Rydal, passed in marriage to Crossland, and by sale to Patrickson. It is now the property of the Rev. Henry John Todd, who is patron of the curacy.

This sounds way more accurate than Burkes. Still a lot of unanswered questions though...

That excerpt is from The Magna Brittanium Vol. 4

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