Elizabeth Wentworth - With so much evidence refuting it, why does she continue to be identified as the daughter of Thomas Wentworth?

In other words, why is this "Elizabeth Wentworth" connected to this Ralph DUNham? It doesn't make any genealogical sense. Wrong spouse for a very noble lady, so sad.

(I probably didn't phrase my question clearly enough the first time).

Managers of Elizabeth Wentworth,

I am contacting you about this profile: Lady Elizabeth Denman

Greetings, cousins!

Please be advised that it is proven beyond reasonable doubt that she is actually the wife of Ralph Denman, Sr., of Newhall Grange and not "Ralph DUNham". Visitations pedigree charts for both, the Wentworths of Wentworth Woodhouse and Woolsey and the DENman (aka DENham, not Dunham) families -- prove this, and I also speak for others who share the knowledge of the truth of my claim. It has been known since at least 1998 that she is not the wife of Ralph DUNham. And if you compare the Wentworth and Denman pedigree charts which are both included in Yorkshire Visitations, it is readily apparent that her husband, Ralph Denman's (aka Denham's) ancestry does NOT match up at all to the pedigree given for Ralph Dunham.

This clears up once and for all in my mind, that Ralph DUNham and Ralph DENman/DENham are NOT the same person! It was so confusing for me, with Elizabeth Wentworth incorrectly placed as she still is to this day. It forced me to keep digging, to get to the whole truth. So sad that this noble lady got misplaced that way, but I am happy now that I was able to finally break through it.

Even the sources on her profile provided by other than myself clearly states that Elizabeth, daughter of Golden Thomas, married Ralph DENMAN of Newhall Grange! However ironically, despite being there in plain sight and it being HER profile -- neither of them are tagged for that document in sources. (Yet in the other document, where her husband is competely absent, she is tagged).

This is the document on her profile, along with others found by me, which proves her marriage to Ralph Denman (who is NOT Ralph Dunham, please do not confuse the two):

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000014686740056

As mentioned, problems with the Dunham pedigree have been acknowledged by family members since at least 1998. So I guess maybe because we Denman descendants are so outnumbered and perhaps I'm the only one left other than my daughter who is interested in the family history -- it somehow got swept under the rug. And I do take responsibility for my failing to see the whole picture much sooner. Nevertheless, I find it pretty shocking. I really didn't expect such a glaring mistake on such well-documented English families.

https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/9njNYuYgXoU

Lady Elizabeth Denman...

I should like to humbly request and beseech for Elizabeth and her *ancestors to be removed from Ralph DUNham and placed where she actually belongs, with Ralph DENman and their real children (1Nicholas 2Thomas of London 3Ralph,Jr and 4Brian -- all documented as well).

This has been a long-standing issue for me, something that I've waited many months to address because I wanted to be absolutely sure that I wasn't the one who was mistaken here, before speaking out about it. I continued with my research and never forgot about the problem, and I think it is long overdue for correction.

Sincerely,

Debra Denman

Come to find out, "Ralph DUNham" never existed anyway. Why marry a real noblewoman to a fake profile?

I can’t find Sir Ralph Dunham as a real person either. What about the children attached to him?

Here’s the entire text of the debunk.

https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/9njNYuYgXoU

Having had a chance to look into the matter today, I have to report that the
account of the Dunham family of Scrooby, co. Notts., is an amazingly poor
fraud, which should have been exposed decades ago, yet is still followed in
many publications.
The fabricated origin and family of the [actually nonexistent] Dunhams of
Scrooby originated with the publication of the _Dunham Genealogy_ by Isaac
Watson Dunham (Hartford, 1907). He was about eighty at the time of
publication, so I don't think the fraud was his, but I fear he was imposed upon
by unscrupulous English researchers, too many of whom were operating at that
time.

The purported line of descent (according to the Dunham Genealogy) is thus:

VII. Sir John Dunham, b. 1474, d. 1502 m. Jean Thorland

VIII. John Dunham, b. 1498, d. 1545, m. Benedict Folgambse [sic]

IX. Ralph Dunham, b. 1526, d. [not known], m. Elizabeth Wentworth, daughter of
Sir Thomas, Lord Wentworth of Nettlested. (!)

X. Thomas Dunham, b. 1560, d. [not known], m. [some sources give Jane Bromley]

XI. JOHN DUNHAM, the immigrant, b. 1589 (according to his age given in New
England records), d. 1669, m. Abigail Wood.

The actual facts are quite different. Robert Charles Anderson gives a very
detailed account of the immigrant in _The Great Migration_, but makes no
attempt to trace the English ancestry. There was a preliminary attack against
the line by Ralph E. Dawson in _The Mayflower Quarterly_ 54(1988):201-3, but
his conclusions were not very solid or profound. He does note the "Paucity of
documentation and a certain uninhibited ebullience of treatment" in the Dunham
Genealogy, and he did at least make reference to Marshall's edition of the
Visitations of Nottinghamshire and Norcliffe's edition of the Visitation of
Yorkshire.

The Dunham Genealogy states that Ralph Dunham was born in Scrooby about 1526,
and married Elizabeth Wentworth, daughter of Thomas, Lord Wentworth. Speaking
of Lord Thomas Wentworth, it says, [p. xxxvii] "He then resided in Scrooby,
where his dau. Elizabeth was m. to Ralph Dunham in or about 1556." Dunham
states that Thomas Wentworth of Nettlested [and Stepney] resided at Scrooby in
several different places.

This is complete and utter nonsense. I took the opportunity to scrutinize the
Wentworths of Nettlested with extraordinary care when I wrote the article on
the Harleston family where I was able to determine that Jane Harleston was Lord
Wentworth's last wife (see _The Genealogist_ 9(1988):pt. 2, pp. 163-225,
281-292, esp. 177-8, 190). Thomas, 1st Lord Wentworth, was b. 1501 and d. at
Westminster 3 March 1550/1. Any suggestion that he resided at Scrooby is
utterly astounding (and completely false). Dunham understood that Lord
Wentworth was born in 1501 and mentioned it, but that is why he stated that
Elizabeth Wentworth was born "at Scrooby about 1536."

As shown in a previous post, the wife of Ralph or Raffe Dunham/Denham (but
remember the name Denham can be equivalent to Dinham, a completely different
family), belonged to the family of Wentworth of Wentworth-Woodhouse, and was
married by 1530. She would be born possibly about 1505-10, and therefore could
not have been mother of a fictional person named Thomas Dunham born in 1560 or
1556. Remember that the Plymouth settler John was born about 1589, though
there is no evidence as to where he was born in this account.

But even overlooking the entire lack of any evidence or source for any Dunham
at Scrooby, even if one ignored all the inaccuracies and decided to believe
some connection to Ralph Dunham, THE LINE STOPS THERE.

The Dunhams had been a minor gentry family in co. Nottingham until the marriage
of John, son and heir of Robert Dunham of Darlton, to Elizabeth Bowet, widow of
Sir William Chaworth (d. 1467), and senior daughter and coheir of the
representative of the Zouche estates at Kirklington. "The premature deaths
without issue of Elizabeth's son by Sir William Chaworth and of her nephew, the
only son and heir of her sister Margaret by John Chaworth, in 1483 and 1485
respecitively, left her son by Dunham as Zouche's sole heir." [Simon Payling,
_Political Society in Lancastrian England: The Greater Gentry of
Nottonghamshire (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1991), 53.]

CIPM Hen. VII [Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem ... Henry VII] 2:367-8 (no.
577), 371 (no. 584), 380-1 (nos. 602-4), 386 (no. 612), and 390 (no. 618), are
accounts of the lands of Elizabeth, widow of Sir William Chaworth and "late the
wife of John Dunham, esquire." She died 20/29 March 17 Henry VII, her heir
being her son Sir John Dunham, knight, aged 28. He was heir to the manors of
Bolton-upon-Derne, Yorks., Whethamsted, Herts., Kyngesworthye, Hants.,
Ambresburye, Wilts., Alvynglegh, Suffolk, Eynesford, Essex, and Kyrklyngton,
Nottingham.

As Sir John Dunham, Elizabeth's son, was about 28 in 17 Henry VII, he would be
BORN ABOUT 1474. The Dunham Genealogy states that he had a son named John who
was born at Scrooby in 1498 and was father of Ralph, b. 1526, BUT THE JOHN WHO
WAS SUPPOSED TO BE RALPH'S FATHER ACTUALLY DIED UNMARRIED AS A CHILD.

Tonge's Visitation of the North in 1530 [SS 41:6] states:
"Syr John Donham, son of John, maried to his first wyfe Jane, doughter of
Thomas Therlond of Gamston, esquire: and by her had no yssue. And the said Syr
John maried to his second wyfe Bennet, doughter to Syr Godfrey Folgeam
[Foljambe] of Derbyshire: and by her had yssue, John, whiche dyed yonge; and
Katherine; Elizabeth; Margaret; Anne; and Mary."

Note that as no children were born to the first marriage it would explain why
Sir John was so old at the births of his children by Bennet Foljambe [but see
my last note below].

As the father John was born about 1474, the son John would not have been born
until about 1495 or later, and died as a child. His sisters became coheirs of
the Zouche lands mentioned above. The Visitation of Nottingham, 1569 [HS
4:160], gives the children thus:

John Donham ob. yong
Catherine ux. Rafe Okover of Okover in Com. Stafford
Frances ux. John Haselwood
Anne ux. George Meverell of ... in Com. Stafford
Mary ux. Thomas Grantham of ... in Com. Lincon [sic]

Flower's Visitation of Yorkshire in 1563-4 [HS 16:100] states that Sir John
Dunham died 26 Henry VIII (1535), holding the manor of Bolton-super-Derne.
This agrees with the official list of inquisitions post mortem for the reign of
Henry VIII [Lists and Indexes, no. 23], which shows inquisitions taken for
lands in Lincoln, Nottingham, Wilts., and Yorks. in 26 Henry VIII. His son had
predeceased him (the visitation says, "John Donham, dyed yong."), his daughter
Katherine was aged 10 (b. 1525), Ann was aged 6 (b. 1529), Mary was aged 3 (b.
1532), and Francis was aged 7 [b. 1528]. The Yorkshire Visitation lists as
daughters and coheirs Kateren, Elsabeth, Margaret, Ann and Mary. But
apparently only four daughters survived to adulthood. The Yorkshire Visitation
is also wrong on other small points.

Katherine was married to Henry Legh by 1549 when they entered upon the manor of
Zouches or Ing's Place in Wheathapstead, Herts. [VCH Herts. 2:307]. Francis
Meverell held it in 1560. Francis Meverell, MP, was born 1514/15, son of
George Meverell, and had married, by 20 October 1544, Anne, da. and coh. of Sir
John Denham of Kirklington, Notts., and they had five sons and two daughters
(he also had one illegitimate son) [S. T. Bindoff, _The House of Commons,
1509-1558_ 2:597]. Anne was therefore about fourteen years his junior. Mary,
da. and coh. of Sir John Dunham married, by 1547, Thomas Grantham, MP, b. by
1525, oldest son of Vincent Grantham of Goltho and Lincoln [ibid.]. So Thomas
was only about seven years his wife's senior. The manor of Kirklington,
Notts., apparently went to Francis, wife of John Hasilwood [Thoroton's History
of Nottinghamshire... 3:98]. Thoroton states that Katherine, 'one of the four
daughters and coheirs,' received another small manor in that parish and married
(1) Raph Okeover, of Okeover, esquire, and (2) Henry Leigh, of Rushall,
esquire.

Even though this study is preliminary, it is clear that the account given in
the Dunham Genealogy is entirely spurious, though who perpetrated the fraud is
not yet clear. The ancestry is completely severed in the parentage of Ralph
Dunham, there is no reason to believe he had any connection to Scrooby, and
there isn't even any reason to believe the Plymouth settler was born in
Scrooby. Wills for Scrooby Dunhams were not found in the PCC, Prerogative
Court of York (PCY) or Archdeaconry of Nottingham. Parish registers for
Scrooby do not survive from this period.

Detailed extracts of inquisitions post mortem for Nottinghamshire are in print
for this period, but I cannot find where I've put my copy and the library's
closed, so it will have to wait until later. I still need to determine who
the Sir John Dunham was who had inquisitions taken in cos. Kent, Notts.,
Suffolk and Wilts. in 17 Henry VIII. It should be the husband of Elizabeth
Bowet who held the lands by courtusy, but I want to see the record before
drawing that conlusion (and I am very interested to know the names and ages of
the heirs at that time). The inquisition for Elizabeth [Bowet] for her manor
of Whethamsted, co. Herts., says that she and John Dunham were seised on the
manor in fee tail "and afterwards she dies so seised, and the said John Dunham,
esquire [her husband], survived her, and was, and still is, solely seised
thereof in fee tail by the form of the gift."

Hi Erica Howton first, thank you sooo much. As for his children, I doubt they exist any more than their 'father', but I haven't got that far with it yet.

I did however find a nice tidbit here: Nicholas Denman granted wardship of Thomas Wentworth son of Michael Wentworth in 1559 (time of Queen Elizabeth I).

https://www.geni.com/photo/view/4206954630350039965?album_type=phot...

The father of the ward of Nicholas Denman:

Michael Wentworth, of Mendham Priory

The ward:

Sir Thomas Wentworth, of Mendham Priory and Whitley

The ward's son, Michael (grandson of the Michael above), who in 1585 "had livery of his lands" per the footnotes for the record linked above:

Michael Wentworth, of Wolley

Yes ma'am. Also, the debunk was published in 1998:

"Paul C. Reed explains in "The Fraudulent Ancestry of Deacon John Dunham of Plymouth" in The American Genealogist, vol. 73 (1998):101-104 (link points to the article on the NEHGS website) that Ralph Dunham did not exist. The information about him apparently arises from a misreading of a visitation record that documented a man named Ralph Denman, who had different parents and different family than are attributed to "Ralph Dunham.""

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Dunham-156

Isolated Sir Ralph Dunham

Thomas Dunham Is still attached to the world tree, but not - his - son John Dunham of the Plymouth Colony is separated out.

Paul Reed wrote:

“ forgot to emphasize in my post that as David Greene, editor of TAG said, the true English origin of John Dunham of Leyden and Plymouth Colony IS KNOWN. A short account of his ancestry was published in TAG 71, no. 3 (July 1996). He came from Bedfordshire, not the North of England.”

https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/9njNYuYgXoU

Here is a biography of emigrant John Dunham on the John Dunham Society website.

https://www.johndunhamsociety.com/about-john-dunham

http://www.dunhamfamilyhistory.com/paternal-families/dunham-family/...

https://www.plimoth.org/sites/default/files/media/pdf/dunham_john.pdf

http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng/showsource.php?sourceID=S607...

http://massandmoregenealogy.blogspot.com/2011/10/john-dunham-ca-158...
___________________________________________________

Here is the book that has been blamed for the big confusion. I haven't read it all, but searching so far hasn't turned up anything in it about Ralph and Elizabeth Wentworth. However, many have pointed out that this book has serious errors:

https://archive.org/details/dunhamgenealogyd00dunh/mode/2up?q=ralph

__________________________________________________

Anyway, besides Deacon John Dunham I remember seeing Nottinghamshire (I think)
will records for (or at least mentioning) Sir John Dunham of Kirklington and Benedicta Dunham. But I'd like to double check that info and get back with you tomorrow, as I've run out of steam. I can't quite recall offhand if they were Dunham or Denham, etc. All I can say for certain is that I know of no connection between my Denman ancestors and either Benedicta or John of Kirklington.

(I hope all these links which I only discovered within the last hour will be helpful and not cause any more confusion for anyone.)
____________________________________________________

https://www.familysearch.org/service/records/storage/das-mem/patron...

https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/dunham/3452/

Here’s the real immigrant ancestor the fake genealogy was fabricated for.

John Dunham, of the Plymouth Colony

He has correct parents on Geni.

There are two versions of the book. They both have the same date and preface, but this one has a long preamble

https://archive.org/stream/dunhamgenealogy00dunh#page/n17/

I'm guessing it was printed for family circulation only. But that itself is a dead giveaway.

It tries to make out that Elizabeth de Burgh, Countess of Ulster in her own right, sole heiress to huge estates, wife of the king's son, had a brother Thomas de Burgh who married Lucy de Bellew, heiress of a one-horse manor in Yorkshire.

Unfortunately, a fraudulent Dunham pedigree was printed in this book, which is a standard genealogy reference. Extract here:

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~hubbard/genealogy/NNY_index/dunham.html

NORTHERN NEW YORK Genealogical and family history of northern New York: a record of the achievements of her people in the making of a commonwealth and the founding of a nation. New York: Lewis Historical Pub. Co. 1910.

Vll and up seem OK although there are date issues - that may be related to wonky Visitations. I’m working on fixing up the Dunham’s.

But these three generations are likely out right fabrications.

—-

(VIII) Sir John (3), son of Sir John (2) Dunham, was born in 1498. He married Benedict, daughter of Adam and Kathryn Folgamsbee. Kathryn was daughter of John Leake, Southwell Dale, Derbyshire. He died in 1545.

COMMENT: this John died young, in fact his death ends the male line of Dunham’s; Benedict Foljame was his father’s (Sir John ll) second wife. A “died young end of line” is a frequent trick in constructing a fraud, by the way.

(IX) Ralph, son of Sir John (3) Dunham, was born in Scrooby, 1526. He married, about 1556, Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Thomas Wentworth, whose father, Richard Wentworth, was knighted at the Battle of Spurs; her mother, Margaret (Fortescue), was a daughter of Adam and Margaret (Montague) Fortescue. Sir Thomas Wentworth resided at Scrooby.

COMMENT: GRAFT of Wentworths (so noble) from DENHAM to “died young” DUNHAM.

(X) Thomas, son of Ralph Dunham, was born at Scrooby in 1560 He removed to London, and died there. He was inclined to be a reformer in religion.

COMMENT: no one can find Dunham’s in Scrooby. Scrooby registers however only begin around 1602 if I remember right.

Children:

John, born 1589, mentioned below.

COMMENT: this is the Puritan colonist. It is since proven that he is the son of a Richard Dunham of Bedfordshire, named in his will.

Robert, born in Scrooby, 1605, went to London with his father and was transported to Virginia in 1635.

COMMENT: no Dunham’s born Scrooby found. I don’t think a Robert Dunham was in Richard of Derbyshire’s will.

http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/monographs/dunham1924/dunham05.htm

Here's what I found about John Dunham of Kyrtelyngton and his wife Benedicta (possibly the daughter of Benedicta and Henry Folgham, who are mentioned in the same book in the post mortem for John Byrd [1506]), in the 1553 post mortem for John Leek:

https://archive.org/details/recordseries03thor/page/n443/mode/2up?q...

Various Dunhams and Donhams are mentioned throughout this source, as are Denman, Deynman (listed with Denman in the index), and only one 'Denham' (indexed separately for one of the many Dunhams, daughter of a Sir John Dunham, Kt., Anne, along with her sisters, within the lengthy post mortem for Edmund Hunt, 1538/9, p.247). The last one ('Denham') actually makes no logical sense, because in the text it only says "Dunham", and she is listed right in the middle of a group of more Dunhams. Unless I missed something.

There are also a few possibly more or less random Wentworths to be found in this book, along with an interesting assortment of antique characters. Notably, in the 1513 post mortem for Sir Ralph Langford, one of the king's commissioners was "John DUNham" while one of the witnesses was "John DENMAN" (p.80).

Also, on page 102 there is the 1518 post mortem for (I believe) my 12th g-grandfather John Denman of Retford, Esq. whose wife predeceased him; and his heir was son, the Nicholas who was granted wardship of Golden Thomas's grandson (Thomas Wentworth). This Nicholas was the father of the Ralph Denman (Sr.) who married Golden Thomas's daughter, Elizabeth.

Mentioned in the 1520 post mortem for Humphrey Hercy, is (I believe) my 10th g-grandfather, Thomas Denman "of Ordsall".

"Nicholas Denman" is found dozens of times throughout the book, and although usually spelled "Denman" (just once or twice I saw "Deynman") -- he is indexed separately under "Denman (Deynman)".

I made myself read the book (expanded version). It has some painful errors in basic royal genealogy.

It also says Robert Dunham (in the Visitation chart) married Margaret Stafford, daughter of Humphrey, Duke of Buckingham. You won't find that anywhere else, except all over the internet.

But the Elizabeth Wentworth in the book has no resemblance to Debra's Elizabeth. Different parents, different birthplace, different husband, different kids. Nothing in common at all. She's completely fictitious, but the writer can't be accused of abducting Ralph Denman's wife. He hooks his bogus Sir Ralph Dunham up to Lord Wentworth of Nettlestead and doesn't mention either Wentworths of Wentworth or Denmans of East Retford.

Probably was a Geni Marriage for Elizabeth Wentworth ... :)

I’m cleaning up the Dunham and collateral families on Geni , there were some dating issues. So it’s doubly good this got found.

I actually have a Benedicta Dunham question. Visitations list her as the mother of the 2nd Sir Johns children and Paul C Reed said she was also. However, she was born in 1499, and the John who died young was born 1495, so this can’t be so.

History of Parliament for her next husband said she had no Dunham children but it would be nice to verify that, especially as I see a Katherine with too many husbands.

Catherine Okeover - is she really married to William Talbot?

Benedicta Newenham - any children at all?

Thank you, Brian Johnson your contributions to discussions are much appreciated. That is so interesting. So really, there could be a grain (or grains) of truth in the book, and somehow it later became misinterpreted by susbsequent Dunham Family scholars? I think I would like to study it some more, now. Although inexplicably I was unable to find "Elizabeth Wentworth" at all in that book when searched -- I see it now, and you are absolutely correct. I kind of suspected that was the case, too. But until you pointed it out, I couldn't be sure. It's right here, on pps. xxx to xxxiii:

"As the Dunhams changed their residences to different parts of England, we find a diversity in the spelling of their surnames. Thus in Kent County, Denhams; in Devonshire, Douhams; in Norfolk, Downham: in Nottingham, Dunham and Douham; and in Dorsetshire, Dynham; all of which represent different branches of the same families, but in different localities. Sir John Dunham, of Dunham on the Trent, wrote his name both Dunham and Douham. Douham, perhaps, as to his origin and Dunham as to his residence.

"Deacon John Dunham was variously called in the transfer of property. His son Thomas took the name of Donham, his son Jonathan, who settled in New Jersey, continued the name and his descendants spell their names Donham. Deacon John's grandson, Eleazer, spelled his name Donham; others of his descendants changed
their names. One branch changed their surnames to Denhams. The cause of this, appears to have come through Capt. Corneilus Dunham, a mariner.

"When in England, he was in search of his English ancestry and being in a part of the country where the Denhams resided, he was TOLD that his name SHOULD have been 'Denham' and that he "must" be a descendant of Sir John Denham. He had prepared a copy of his **coat of arms** and brought it to this country. The news was broadcast that the Dunhams should write their names Denham.

"There was no search made, for there was no record of descent and it is probable that Sir John Denham was from the same stock from which Deacon John Dunham descended."
_______________________________________

(Although I may not have mentioned it here, it really did feel a lot like my 11th g-aunt by marriage (6th cousin 12x removed by blood) had somehow been stolen from her rightful family, yet I felt even more sorry for the sake of her memory and heritage than anything else. On the other hand, Deacon John Dunham is my 9th g-grandfather, too -- last time I checked, anyway.)
______________________________________________

However the Dunham coat of arms doesn't even slightly resemble that of the Denman one (which is of earlier provenance, if that is the correct word to use for what I'm trying to say here).

DUNHAM COAT OF ARMS [apparently quartered].

CREST.—A MARTIN pas, between two spears of wheat on blue field.

1. Azure, on chief indented Or, a label gules DUNHAM.

2. Sable—Three Buckheads colored argent Bowett.

3. Gules, ten bezants, a canton Ermine ZOUCHE.

4. Argent on a fez indented sable, three bezants BERGH.

5. Sable, fretty Or Bellaqua.

6. Azure, on chief indented Or, a label gules DUNHAM.

This Coat of Arms was adopted by Sir John Dunham, 1498, as the family shield, to include that of his ancestry.

NOTE: I don't know that they don't have a much earlier version somewhere, as I haven't searched for it yet.
___________________________________________________

The Denman Coat of Arms, which like the one for Wentworth of Wentworth Woodhouse and Woolley, has a chevron and three 'big cat' heads (otherwise very little in common, I guess):

Crest: A raven rising Proper in the beak an annulet Or.

Escutcheon: Argent on a chevron between three lions' heads erased Gules as many ermine spots Or.

Supporters: On either side a lion Gules charged on the body with five ermine spots in cross Or.

Motto: Prudentia Et Constantia

https://media.geni.com/p13/5a/07/df/00/5344484e6d2d0f91/denmancoato...

Wentworth Coat:

Arms: Sable, a chevron between three leopard's faces or.

Crest: a Gryphon passant, wings elevated, argent.

https://www.geni.com/photo/view/6000000000966269594?album_type=phot...=

NOTE: There is also a "quarterly" version that combines Wentworth with Pollington.
______________________________________________

Okay, I've spent all evening looking at visitations charts for Dunham and Wentworth. But nowhere have I found any Ralph Dunham, yet. With difficulty I was able to locate a copy of the visitations pedigree for "Wentworth of Nettlestead" (the first one was missing pages), pps.77-79. But again, no Ralph Denman. Only that our Elizabeth's marriage to _____DENMAN of East Retford, Yorkshire, Esq. -- is reaffirmed.

So I get that searching for the fabled 'Ralph Dunham/Elizabeth Wentworth' connection is probably just a wild goose chase.

https://royaldescent.blogspot.com/2010/02/weakest-link-in-jane-seym...

I forgot to link the Nettlestead Wentworth source, mentioned above:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.c086260556&view=imag...

I also forgot to quote the germain parts of the Dunham book:

CHILDREN OF THOMAS WENTWORTH. 1501 of Scrooby, son of Richard Wentworth.

I. Margaret became wife of first John, Baron Williams of Thame; secondly Sir William Drury; and thirdly Sir James Crofts

II. Dorothy became wife, first of Paul Withypole who d. in 1579; secondly of Martin Frobisher. the navigator; and thirdly of Sir John Saville of Mothley

111. Thomas, b. in 1525 succeeded as second Baron in 1551. In 1546 he married his cousin, Mary, dau. of John Wentworth, and after her death her cousin Anne, dau. of Henry Wentworth. Anne d. in 1576 at Scrooby.

IV. Elizabeth, b. at Scrooby about 1536. m. Ralph Dunham of Scrooby.

V. John, was lost with the Greyhound in 1562.

VI. James, was lost with the Greyhound in 1562.

VII. Jane became the wife of Henry, Baron Cheney of Toddington.
______________________________________________

So, I get that these fabled Scrooby Wentworths are completely(?) unsubstantiated and considered spurious by genealogists who have done the fact-checking on it. The boys being "lost with the Greyhound in 1562" sounds so persuasive.

Ralph Dunman of Scrooby is faker! I don’t know if this Elizabeth Wentworth is real or not.

"Ralph Dunman of Scrooby is faker!" -- That I don't doubt! :D An interesting myth, and that's about it.

I'm looking for answers to your last questions, Erica. Just got started on it though, so might not have anything to report until tomorrow.

I need more on this (should I disconnect from parents)

Margaret Stafford

===Disputed Origins

“Robert Dunham (in the Visitation chart) married Margaret Stafford, daughter of Humphrey, Duke of Buckingham. You won't find that anywhere else, except all over the internet.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humphrey_Stafford,_1st_Duke_of_Buckin...

Sources conflict over the precise details of the Humphrey Stafford, 1st Duke of Buckingham & Anne Neville, Duchess of Buckingham progeny.[note 13] The antiquarian I. W. Dunham, writing in 1907, listed them as Humphrey, Henry, John, Anne (married Aubrey de Vere), Joana (married Viscount Beaumont before 1461), Elizabeth, Margaret (born about 1435, married Robert Dinham),[note 14] and Katherine (married John Talbot, the future 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, before 1467). [note 15] James Tait lists the daughters as Anne, Joanna, Elizabeth, Margaret and Catherine and suggests that Elizabeth and Margaret never married.[note 16] Rawcliffe gives the following as dates of birth and death for three of the daughters: Anne, 1446–1472; Joan, 1442–1484; and Katherine, 1437–1476.[1] Edward and the twins, George and William, died young. The seventh son has gone unremarked in the sources.[171]

Margaret (born about 1435, married Robert Dinham),[note 14] The Dinhams were one of the wealthiest gentry families in Devon of the period.[167]

167. Cherry 1981, pp. 7, 106. Cherry, M. (1981). The Crown and the Political Community in Devon, 1377-1461 (PhD thesis). University of Wales (Swansea).

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I don’t (yet) know if this Donham / Dunman family In Notts evolved from the wealthy Dinham in Devon family. The Kirklinton property came to them by marriage in the next generation.

(Answering myself). Yes, the wealthy Dinhams of Devon became the Notts family.

Basically Isaac Watson Dunham had zero information about the English origins of the immigrant. This is entirely normal - about 98% of all early colonial immigrants are in that boat.

But the genre convention in the old family vanity books was to supply the immigrant with a made-up romantic ancestry, for family entertainment purposes.

A common way was just to find the best English family with the same surname and give them an unrecorded extra son, unless they happened to have a real son of the right name who wasn't obviously accounted for.

Isaac doesn't do that. He just makes up a whole fictitious line of Dunhams going back to Sir Ralph.

Then he marries Sir Ralph to a made-up daughter of Lord Wentworth. Thomas Lord Wentworth is the first real person here. He was descended from Edward III and a cousin of Queen Jane Seymour, so now we're going places.

What Isaac says about Wentworth is mostly correct (he'll have got it from the peerage books), except for
1 - the fictitious daughter Elizabeth
2 - he relocates him from Nettlestead to Scrooby.

Lord Wentworth actually had 17 kids. There was a real Elizabeth, who married John Cocke.

Isaac drags Scrooby into it so that he can wangle in a Mayflower connection and a religious persecution story.

There were no Wentworths at Scrooby in the time of the first Lord Wentworth. They had no land there. Later, your Elizabeth's brother Thomas was employed as the bishop's bailiff at Scrooby, but Lord Wentworth was dead by then. That was the only real Wentworth connection with Scrooby. The bishop's bailiff isn't mentioned in the book.

"The antiquarian I. W. Dunham, writing in 1907" is the Dunham Genealogy book. Wikipedia is citing the fake pedigree.

I need more on this (should I disconnect from parents)

Margaret Dunham

===Disputed Origins

“Robert Dunham (in the Visitation chart) married Margaret Stafford, daughter of Humphrey, Duke of Buckingham. You won't find that anywhere else, except all over the internet.”
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Erica Howton since the visitations entry only gave her and father's last name (actually STANFFORD, not Stafford) and stated that they were from Derbyshire, I doubt he was married to the daughter of a duke.

I realize it isn't the same person, but there is historical reference to STANFORDS living in 17th century Derbyshire. Of course by that time, the monarchy had been abolished and restored already.

Footnote: "1 William Edmundson was first married to Margaret Stanford, of Bramley, Derbyshire, daughter of Thomas Stanford. She died in 1691, at the house of her son-in-law, William Fayle, near Dublin..."

Immigration of the Irish Quakers Into Pennsylvania, 1682-1750 With Their Early History in Ireland, by Albert Cook Myers (1902), p.14

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Immigration_of_the_Irish_Quake...

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KBFS-P4Y

Burial record for "Stanford" Nov. 17, 1579 at St Laurance [parish/church], Heanor, Derbyshire, England

"But the genre convention in the old family vanity books was to supply the immigrant with a made-up romantic ancestry, for family entertainment purposes."

That may be true in some cases, but neither did they have the kind of easy access to records that we enjoy today. Some of them actually did travel across the Atlantic back to England and Europe just to learn the truth about their family histories. I suspect that in many cases then as now, they had a lot of difficulty reading and interpretating the archaic language, spelling, grammar and fonts of the texts, not to mention the manuscripts.