Hemma von Mělník - Emma von Mělník of italy?

wiki ENG mentions the theory but doesn't detail much. (wiki ITA is practically the translation.)

wiki DE (main star) explains well the 3 theories:
*https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_von_B%C3%B6hmen#Hypothesen_zu_Em...

of course the native wiki (Czechoslovakian) adds more details:
*https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_(kn%C4%9B%C5%BEna)#Teorie_o_p%C5...

(being theories logically for MedLands it is total darkness:)

link to wikis, MedLands, and respective MP profiles served on the info-about of each profile. (clones still present-_-)

Have Fun!

PS. wiki ITA of Emma of Italy with the gift of synthesis dedicated a small chapter to the question (with all the right links to the connections mentioned)

-https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_d%27Italia#Emma_duchessa_di_Boem...
>> According to certain Czech historians and numismatists, Emma should be identified with Emma of Mělník, second consort of Boleslao II of Bohemia and mother of two of his children, Ulrico / Oldřich and Jaromír.
''' However, this second union is rejected by most historians. ''' <<

now understand, hope to dissect here the reasons for the rejection, I see it a bit hard seen and consider the intuition and speed of execution that are being revealed in the discussion.
(clones still present :)

This is not an area I know much about. My inclination for Geni, which should be a conservative platform genealogically, is to follow this point:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_of_Italy

“The proof of a Bohemian marriage are denars with the inscription ENMA REGINA ("Queen Emma", not duchess). In that time Bohemia was a Duchy of Bohemia, not yet a Kingdom of Bohemia, but she was still an anointed queen of Western Francia. Through her the following Dukes of Bohemia became also offspring of Carolingian.”

“This second wedding is not accepted by the majority of historians.”

——

Jason Scott Wills Should we disconnect Emma from controversial 2nd husband ?

I go to quick memory of a thousand things I have in my head..
..2 chests of coins but only 8 had that written?

Jaromir Stransky has been making lots of fantasy connections in this area. I see you've already disconnected her

I didn’t think you supported the connection, but it’s great to be sure. Thanks, Jason.

Greetings. This period of history before the year 1000 in the Czech Principality has not been clearly resolved to date. There are more questions than answers. Adiva and Emma ... DNA ??? .... Since 973, Prague has been a diocese separate from Regensburg. Thank you and I apologize for my vision ... Jaromir

OK but clones still orbiting, press delete button..

I removed three duplicates. The questions are still valid. Thank you Jaromir

Private User - geni is very conservative on making connections. We do it from discussion of the sources in separate discussions from profiles. Women’s DNA that far back probably won’t tell us much.

The WIKI database also has the following data:
https://de.zxc.wiki/wiki/Emma_von_B%C3%B6hmen

ah well, readed like this, it deflates even more ^^

http://zinow.no/tngfiles1010/getperson.php?personID=I4578&amp;tree=...

https://it.qaz.wiki/wiki/Emma_of_Italy

https://www.myheritage.com/names/emma_d%27italia

https://www.af.w3ki.com/wiki/Emma_of_M%C4%9Bln%C3%ADk

https://is.muni.cz/th/p78uk/Disertace.txt

https://panovnici.estranky.cz/clanky/emma-regina.html

https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/EasternBohemia.htm#D...

Each historical event that is the basis for building subsequent events must be confirmed from at least two independent sources. If we cannot satisfy this predicate, then it is only a prediction and a hypothesis suitable for opposition. I am in a similar situation in my direct paternal line in the 13th century. The predicate is a side line of the Dukes of Pomerania named Swantiborides. After 1280, information about this line ends in Pomerania on the Baltic Sea. After 1265, Konrád (Chunradus) appeared in the court of King Otakar II in Prague as a master of the kitchen and then the king's table until 1278. I do not know whether the hypothesis can be independently supported.

well, come on, you saw how to do..
You document the surrounding area that interests you [linking the sources & phrase to which it is best to pay attention in the info-about of the profiles that you will then mention in the discussion (copy-paste the link from the browser to interactively quote a profile)]
{{{{most things resolve themselves at this level already: discovering that there were better sources that overpowered those on an inconsistent basis}}}}

otherwise proceed opening discussion about the profile you are talking about, by linking the profiles you speak of, & automatically (C)s, ADMNs, & Followers of those profiles they read your discussion..

This one seems solved to me, Good Luck!

Hello Livio,

Prince Boleslav II (931 - 999) together with his younger brother Kristian - the monk was the son of Boleslav I

According to all available sources, Boleslav II certainly had more women.
It is believed that the first woman had offspring:

Boleslav III 963 (was blinded and imprisoned in Poland - Krakow)
Vaclav 970 - died in childhood
Jaromir 976 (was plucked, blinded and finally pierced with a spear)

There was a strong competitive struggle between the brothers, but the youngest Oldrich was spared.
Before 989, Boleslav II was a widower !!! After 992 he had a stroke !!!
He lived until 999.
He is believed to have had a child between those years ... Udalricus.

The other woman is thought to have had offspring:
Oldrich (Udalricus) - 990

Emma and Jaromir and Oldrich were under protection in Bavaria ... until 1003. Then Bohemia and the possibility of the fief Melnik.

The name Udalricus is, according to Saints Oldrich of Augsburg, or Ulrich, sometimes also as Udalryk was from August 28, 923 until his death in 973 Bishop of Augsburg, a saint of the Roman Catholic Church.

This name is not of Czech origin and it was NEW here.

The name Emma, ​​born in Prague, does NOT exist anywhere in any family in the Czech Principality. Plus, there would be no royal family !!

EMMA REGINA is not of Czech origin.

I do not have the possibility to add another wife to the person Boleslav II.
Please consider adding another wife to Boleslav II.

Thank you
Jaromir

One earlier wife or two?

https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adivea

Adivea or Adiva could be the first wife of the Czech prince Boleslav II. , perhaps the daughter of King Edward I the Elder of England .

There is speculation about Boleslav's wife or wives. Numismatist Pavel Radoměrský came up with the hypothesis in 1953 that when Emperor Otto I the Great married Edita in 929 or 930 , one of the sisters of King Ethelstan of England (924 - 939), the Czech prince Václav was also present . He was to take his younger sister Edith Elfgif (Aldgith) to Bohemia as a bride for his nephew Boleslav II.

The eldest son of Boleslav III. Boleslav II probably had. with his first wife. In the book The Přemyslids, Building the Czech State , his other three sons, Jaromír , Oldřich and Václav, are mentioned by an unknown second wife, stating that more wives are inferred from the expected date of birth of Boleslav's sons. [1]

—-

https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_(kn%C4%9B%C5%BEna)_

Probable third wife of Boleslav II. [ edit ] edit source ]
Regarding the wife or wives of the Czech monarch Boleslav II. there is still speculation. Today, however, historians generally believe that Boleslav II. he had at least two wives. The most probable variant, however, seems to be that which claims that this monarch gradually had three wives, of whom we know the last one safely by name - ie Emma, ​​who is also sometimes misspelled as Hemma and is named Emma Regina on well-known coins from Mělník. - ie Emma Queen.

The eldest son of Boleslav III. Boleslav II probably had. with his first wife. In the book Přemyslids, Building the Czech State and in other publications, his other three sons, Jaromír , Oldřich and Václav, are mentioned by an unknown second wife, stating that more wives are inferred from the expected date of birth of these Boleslav sons [1] . These mentioned Přemyslids were born in the range of about 30 years between the years 950-978.

References [ edit | edit source ]
↑ COLLECTIVE. Přemyslovci . Building the Czech state . Prague: Lidové noviny Publishing House, 2009. ISBN 978-80-7106-352-0 . S. 564.

http://www.e-stredovek.cz/view.php?nazevclanku=zeny-ve-stinu-premys...

Women in the Shadow of the Přemyslids - Part 3. Mysterious Adiva and even more mysterious Emma Regina
Author: Tekla . Published on September 23, 2006 (18829 reads)

Searching for the origin of the wives of Boleslav II.

Like the origin and identity of Boleslav II's mother, who was probably called Biagota and which we talked about in the previous part of the story of the Přemyslids, the identity of his wives remains secret to us to this day. He is believed to have been married several times, probably twice, but perhaps three times. We know about Boleslav that he had four sons - Václav, who died small, Boleslav (known as Ryšavý), Jaromír and Oldřich. But who the mothers of these boys were is still a mystery. ...

Burgundian princess?

The Piarist monk Gelasius Dobner was the first of the Czech historians (or historians) to deal with the person of the Czech princess Emma in his work Monumenta historica Boemiae nusquam antehac edita in 1772. Based on her name Emma and other obscure sources, he expressed the opinion that it probably came from from the powerful Welf family, specifically - that she was probably the daughter of King Conrad of Burgundy (reigned 937 to 993) and thus the sister of Duchess Gisela, wife of the Duke of Bavaria Henry II. Quarrelsome, whose ally in the fight for the imperial throne was the Czech prince Boleslav II. ....

http://www.e-stredovek.cz/comment.php

Emma's name really isn't on Melnic civitas coins. I have no idea why historians and numismatists read it like that, but ENMA is on the coins. In my opinion, it is definitely not possible to identify this with any interpretation of the name Emma, ​​which would be written Hemma in Latin, as the name sounds in the Cosmos Chronicle of the Czechs, where there is a report about the princess. ENMA REGINA is really on the coins.

Either it is a completely different name, or it is not a personal name at all, but it is the purpose of the coin.

My suggestion for the interpretation of the description is:
E (claesia) N (ostra) MA (guntia) Regina
Or: my (our) Church Maguntia, Queen - or Archbishopric of Mainz with a nickname. Or our archbishopric at the time, from St. Willigis. He moved the Prague Diocese from Salzburg (Iuvavum) just to himself to Mainz (Maguntia, Moguntia in Latin).

The mint is clearly Melnic civitas. Theories about Melnic Serbian or Pannonian are probably wrong according to the picture from the Czech environment.

There was certainly no Adiva, there is no such name on the coins. At the last auctions, there are coins with a clear description:

PADVA CIV

Earlier readings stemmed from indistinct coin prints. Today there are digital photos.
Padva civ means the mint PADVA, or the Latin surname Passau, Padua north !!! This is proof that Boleslav II minted coins not only in Prague, but also in the mints of the so-called Roman Empire. Its restoration was the main policy of the Ottons. Undoubtedly, including the minting and circulation of denarii, although I think there is no known direct edict on denarii, such as the Edict Pistenses in Karlovce.

Dear Erica,

thank you for the inspiring links.

If I compare these materials:

http://www.e-stredovek.cz/view.php?nazevclanku=zeny-ve-stinu-premys...

and

https://handl.blog.respekt.cz/anglicka-princezna-adiva-mozna-manzel...

Many variants are possible for the daughter Adiva cca * 916 from the English family Cardik:

as the wife of St. Wenceslas * 897 or ( the wife of Boleslav I * 906 )
and possibly the mother of her daughter Emma, ​​born in Prague around 934.

There are lines for Emma:

line English Cardik Adiva - daughter Emma November 2 death 1006
It is not possible for the son of Boleslav II to marry the daughter of father Boleslav I. So St. Wenceslas had to have a descendant - a daughter who would be in the age of Boleslav II. Then Emma, ​​born between 931 and 936, could be.

Furthermore, the possible line of descendants of St. Wenceslas to the Slavnik family is a clear hypothesis.

But there were no differences between Boleslav I and Slavnik family until 967, and even then Boleslav II until 995 !!!

Bavarian line Burchard - daughter of Emma's death before 999 - not surviving to 1006 !!!

the Franconian line was ruled out - death November 1, 988 France - no survival until 1006 !!!

-------------------

Boleslav II certainly had the third wife in his life, who was the mother of his older descendants.
Emma, ​​as the third woman, could have been the mother of Udalric (Ulrich-Oldrich).
He could have been born before 990 in about 975.

Because in 1003 Udalrich had a son, Bretislaus. So he had to be born before 990. He would only be 13 years old !!! His first wife could not have children and therefore he had a non-prince descendant !!!

There was no other descendant in the Premyslov family, so the line then continued the descendants of Prince Bretislav ....

After many years of disputes and wars between the Czech, Polish and Pomeranian principalities in 1046, the disputes under the jurisdiction of Henry III, Holy Roman Emperor, ended on 24 June 1046 and 29 June 1046:

Historical record The Annals record reads: "His omnibus peractis rex inde discessit ac Mersiburc, natale sancti Iohannis celebraturus [24 June], perrexit. Illuc etiam Bratizlao dux Boemorum, Kazmir Bolaniorum, Zemuzil Bomeraniorum advenerunt atque regem donisibus ... hon ... ] Inde disscedens apostolorum Petri et Pauli festa [29 June] Mihsina celebravit ubi etiam conventionem secundo habens duces praefatos inter se pacificavit. " (Annales Altahensis maiorum ad a. 1046) [1]

This entry describes Zemuzil's attendance of a meeting with Henry III, Holy Roman Emperor in Merseburg ("Mersiburc") on 24 June 1046, along with Bretislaus I, Duke of Bohemia ("Bratizlao dux Boemorum") and Casimir I of Poland ("Kazmir Bolaniorum "). [2] The dukes "honored the emperor with decent gifts", which according to Schmidt (2009) was the payment of tribute. [2] In a second meeting on 29 June in Meißen ("Mihsin"), according to the document, the "aforementioned dukes" concluded a mutual peace agreement. [2]

Siemomysł, Siemosił, or Zemuzil (fl. 11th century) was the first historically verifiable Duke of Pomerania, recorded in 1046 in the Annals of Niederaltaich (Annales Altahensis maiorum).

Medlands finds an Adiva wife improbable:

Boleslaus II, duke of Bohemia

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BOHEMIA.htm#BoleslavIIdied999

[ Duke Boleslav has been suggested as the possible husband of Ælfgifu of Wessex, daughter of Edward "the Elder" King of Wessex & his second wife Ælfleda ---. Hroswitha of Gandersheim describes her as "Adiva … younger in years and likewise inferior in merit" to her older sister Eadgyth, whom she accompanied to Germany to provide an alternative choice of bride for Otto of Germany[42]. According to William of Malmesbury, she married "a certain Duke near the Alps"[43], who has not been identified. It seems improbable chronologically that her husband could have been Duke Boleslav. Although the duke's birth date is not known, his younger brother Strakhvas was born 28 Sep 929[44]. It therefore seems unlikely that Boleslaw could have been born much earlier than 925 at the earliest, whereas Ælfgifu was probably born in the range [910/15] assuming that she was of marriageable age when she went to Germany with her sister. ]

—-

Shall we set up an NN wife or wives profile for the 3 older sons, Duke Boleslaus III Przemysled, the Red Duke Boleslaus III Przemysled, duke Wenceslaus Przemysled and Jaromír, duke of Bohemia

Thank you for joining another wife to Boleslav II. If we accept the hypothesis that Adiva, the royal English daughter, * 910 to 916 remained in Prague, then the question arises, who was her husband? We're also looking for a mother for Emma. If Emma Mělník was the wife of Boleslav II, then she was not the daughter of Boleslav I. Biagota was the wife of Boleslav I. So St. Wenceslas comes into play (* 897- + 939). There were probably more descendants from Adiva between 930 and 937. The skeleton of Adiva with a 1.5-year-old child and a newborn is buried in Prague Castle. Václavic - Slavník and Emma could be born in Prague and be of a noble family. After the death of their father and mother, they had the protection of the Saxon family. Emma received the fief of Mělník and Slavník east of Prague - Kouřim and Libice. Age and gender data agree. After 992, Boleslav II was paralyzed by a stroke. The Slavník branch was murdered in 995. After that year, Emma is under the protection of Bavaria with Jaromír and Udalrich. Further power struggles Boleslav III, ..., 1003 death of Soběslav the eldest last son of Slavník, an ally of the Polish Mieszko II Lambert in Prague, ...

Udalrich, duke of Bohemia is your 29th great grandfather.

You

→

Ing. Joseph Franciscus Johann Stransky, SaG
your father

→

Franciscus Stransky, de Sales de Boisy,SaG
his father

→

Joseph Stransky, SaG
his father

→

Johannes Bapt. Stransky, SaG
his father

→

Vacslav Stransky, SaG
his father

→

Mathias Stransky, SaG
his father

→

Wenceslaus Stransky, SaG
his father

→

Johannes Bapt. Stransky, SaG
his father

→

Wenceslaus Stransky, SaG
his father

→

Catharine Johanna Krzineczky, Ronow
his mother

→

Johann Albrecht III Krzineczky-Ronow, rector
her father

→

Johann Albrecht II Krzineczky-Ronow
his father

→

Johann Albrecht I Krzineczky-Ronow
his father

→

jr. Joh.Viktorin Krzineczky von Ronow, Krzineczky-Ronow
his father

→

sr. Viktorin Krzineczky von Ronow, Krzineczky-Ronow
his father

→

Magdalena Kunstadt and Podebrad
his mother

→

Georg Kunstadt and Podebrad, king of Bohemia
her mother

→

Anna z Vartemberka
her mother

→

Johann von Wartenberg, Burggraf von Glatz
her father

→

Bolka Bolesława bytomska
his mother

→

Bolesław bytomski von Kosel, książę
her father

→

Beatrice of Brandenburg
his mother

→

Otto V, Markgraf von Brandenburg
her father

→

Beatrix Božena Česká
his mother

→

Václav I "Jednooky", King of Bohemia
her father

→

Ottokar I Premysl, King of Bohemia
his father

→

Vladislav Přemysl, II
his father

→

Vladislaus I, duke of Bohemia
his father

→

Vratislaus II, king of Bohemia
his father

→

Bretislav I, duke of Bohemia
his father

→

Udalrich, duke of Bohemia
his father

I sent this tree. There are many inaccuracies and duplications. Mainly 13th to 15th century with a connection to King George of Poděbrady. Please help. Thank you Jaromir

Adiva seems problematic, I think we go with a single earlier unnamed wife. Do you know how to merge duplicates safely? Medieval Czech is very new to me, I’d be very slow and conservative. But everyone should be, actually. We need sourced profiles in multiple languages.

The ENMA on the coin could be a simple mistake. Medieval coiners may not have been literate, and they could err even if they could read. Medieval (and later) documents have occasional errors, and various coins were issued with misspellings, inverted numbers, reversed numbers, incorrect numbers, extra numbers, etc. As recently as 2013, for example, the Vatican released a Papal medal with an embarrassing error: LESVS instead of JESVS or IESVS.

I liked this comment though. Especially since Hemma wasn’t a Regina. :)
—-

http://www.e-stredovek.cz/comment.php

Emma's name really isn't on Melnic civitas coins. I have no idea why historians and numismatists read it like that, but ENMA is on the coins. In my opinion, it is definitely not possible to identify this with any interpretation of the name Emma, ​​which would be written Hemma in Latin, as the name sounds in the Cosmos Chronicle of the Czechs, where there is a report about the princess. ENMA REGINA is really on the coins.

According to the Czech Wikipedia:
https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_(kn%C4%9B%C5%BEna)

Emma (princess) of Mělník (town near Prague).
Probably third wife of Boleslav II.
There is still speculation about the wife or wives of the Czech monarch Boleslav II. Today, however, historians generally believe that Boleslav II had at least two wives. However, the most likely variant seems to be the one that claims that this monarch gradually had three wives, the last of whom we certainly know by name - i.e. Emma, who is also sometimes misspelled as Hemma and is referred to as Emma Regina on known coins from Mělník. - i.e. Emma Queen.

Origin theory and latest research results
There have been various speculations about Emma for over 200 years. According to three basic theories, her origin was in Burgundy, England or the Frankish Empire.

The baroque historian Gelasius Dobner was the first to study the personality of Princess Emmy in 1772. Wenceslas. On this sheet the Bohemian princess Emma is depicted as a penitent before the Bohemian national saint St. Wenceslas and before Jesus Christ looking from above. G. Dobner considered Emma to be the Princess of Burgundy and the sister of Gisela, the wife of the powerful Duke of Bavaria Henry II, the quarreler of the Saxon ducal, royal and imperial house of the Liudolfs - i.e. the later so-called Otones. This hypothesis was then adopted for a long time by a number of Dobner's followers. According to this theory, Emma, like Gisela, should be the daughter of King Conrad I of Burgundy.

In the last 20 years or so, the general Czech or German historical public (historians, but also numismatists - e.g. Luboš Polanský, Dušan Třeštík, Jarmila Hásková, Zdeněk Petráň or Peter Hilsch) is quite inclined to believe that Emma Regina should be identical with the West Frankish or French queen dowager Emma of Italy (France). Thus, the theoretical Anglo-Saxon origin has finally fallen out of the picture. The identification of the Czech Emma Regina with the Italian Emma is supported by a number of older and new facts, findings and conclusions. The historian Luboš Polanský has probably summarized these most extensively in his recent studies.

Tom Kornfeld