NN - NN alias "Ternois di Friuli"

Started by Livio Scremin on Wednesday, March 24, 2021
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Okay - but Cawley is explicitly pointing out - using 'parent' - that the gender of the person is unknown/ unknowable, even if we make the first leap to assuming it means nephew.
Hence my genderless placeholder profile.

So far you have provided only allusions to evidence that substantiates the fact that this person was not only a female but also a second? wife of Graf Gebhard.

cf NN

12:29 am Sharon! Is that dedication or addiction?

There is a lot more than “allusions to” if you’ve read through the totality of the information presented. By extracting only 4 questions from the summary message and then basing comment on the message thread alone you are misrepresenting the research that you have been presented with. And if you limit yourself to what Cawley says, you are missing a lot of information by a lot of very smart people.

In addition to the summary message above, as it says, I’ve uploaded 8 additional documents which must be seen as part of this effort.

In Doc 1a there is a lengthy discussion on Gerhard/Gerold/Gebhard, his son Alderic, and it was pointed out in the will of Eberhard and Gisela, Alderic was the first signature as “nephew of”, ie “nepos”. One can’t be a nephew of without being the son of a brother or sister. We make it clear that while there is no “proof” in the way of primary documents there is we believe “substantial evidence” as exists to make a connection. For the information of all, we said in this attachment:

“Regarding Gerold...
We are convinced that St. Everard likely did have at least one sibling (name definitely Unknown), probably a sister,...who quite possibly married an in-law of Charlemagne. Some historians have suggested that it was someone named "Gebhard" (or Gerhold, Gerold), Hildegard's grandnephew. But her husband's identity is also unproven (i.e. Unknown).
We know that these two individuals existed around the same region and timeframe and that both are attributed with a son named Adalric/Udalrich/Adalroch. But we have not yet found any records to positively connect these two in marriage.
We can say the following with confidence:
1. The first-named witness to the will of St. Everard and Gisele, Adalric (var. sp. Adalroch), they referred to as "our" nephew. That strongly suggests a blood kinship to both Everard and Gisele.
2. None of St. Everard's brothers (all well-documented) had any son by that name.
3. None of Gisele's well-documented siblings (particularly Charles the Bald) had any sons by that name.
4. Cawley agrees with other historians that St. Everard had at least one unnamed sibling whose son was Adalric.
5. Gerold also is known to have sons and grandsons by the same name.
6. Adalric would have inherited from his father of the Udalriching family -- so would not likely be found included among the Unruochings.
7. Circumstantial evidence points to this nephew Adalric's father as having been directly descended from Gerold.

We conclude therefore:
1. St. Everard definitely had an unnamed sibling, probably a sister.
2. This sibling definitely had a son named Adalric (var. sp.), as he was the nephew of both St. Everard and Gisele.
3. Aldaric's father was quite likely (we presume along with at least a few other scholars): Gerold (aka "Gebhard").
4. We have yet to discover anything more about the life of Adalric, other than that he was a witness to the will of Everard and Gisele
5. Sharon appears to be on the right track with her characterization of the NN Geni profile in question, as we haven't proven the name, gender, or marriage of this person, only that it was the sibling of St. Everard and had a son named Adalric.”

Doc1b is a supplementary bibliography of thirty, that’s 30!, additional sources, all of which we have reviewed and consider relevant for your reference. This is 30 in addition to the sourcing cited in the individual discussions.

In addition to that I’ve translated several academic papers by SME’s and book chapters by established authors on the subject matter, all relevant, into English for the review of anyone interested, and all of which put this discussion into context. Gebhard is only a piece of a much larger much more interesting picture of an important historical family. It is my opinion that this family on Geni is much overlooked and under worked, and this research in its full presentation will help with clarity, correct deficiencies and inform missing information.

David, the time stamps are determined by your own account settings, Sharon isn't sitting at her computer posting comments in the middle of the night. It was 12:29 am where you live.

When I look at https://www.geni.com/discussions/228307?msg=1468609 I see 3:29 PM, this is why Geni gives us the ability to link to specific messages because otherwise trying to identify them becomes quite tedious.

Hi David. It's called living in SA, not addiction :-)

Regarding reading through everything you've uploaded - I think the onus is on you to sift through this for primary sources.

When I started looking at it, I couldn't find the origin of the uploaded docs (and this matters a lot because not everything in writing is of equal status) Perhaps you hadn't put this up yet, or I was looking in the wrong place, but I thought I'd wait until you did.

"And if you limit yourself to what Cawley says, you are missing a lot of information by a lot of very smart people."
Again - I'm trying to use primary sources to figure out the basis on for which 'smart' people are coming to their conclusions. It's Cawley's references I'm using. You seem to be missing me on this point every time. It's starting to feel a bit like a straw man argument. Bring the other primary sources so we can figure it out together.

Where do Doc A and Doc b come from? This is fundamental to good historical research.

"In Doc 1a there is a lengthy discussion on Gerhard/Gerold/Gebhard, his son Alderic, and it was pointed out in the will of Eberhard and Gisela, Alderic was the first signature as “nephew of”, ie “nepos”. One can’t be a nephew of without being the son of a brother or sister."

Is the word they are referring to nephew not nepos? The exact words are “Adalroch nepos noster”. We've already discussed and agreed that nepos does not automatically mean nephew. What has now changed?

"1. The first-named witness to the will of St. Everard and Gisele, Adalric (var. sp. Adalroch), they referred to as "our" nephew. That strongly suggests a blood kinship to both Everard and Gisele."

Nobody disagrees. Grandson and cousin and descendant are all blood relationships too.

"2. None of St. Everard's brothers (all well-documented) had any son by that name.
3. None of Gisele's well-documented siblings (particularly Charles the Bald) had any sons by that name."

By the same token - Neither is there an Adalrich in Gebhard's well documented children

"4. Cawley agrees with other historians that St. Everard had at least one unnamed sibling whose son was Adalric."

Again - he does not. Cawley is drawing attention to the ahistorical leap of faith being made by historians in doing this. All we can tell from the primary source if we make the first 'nephew not grandson or cousin' leap of faith is that Adalric's parent is related to Eberhard; possibly as a sibling.
This is VERY different from from saying there is definitely another unknown sibling.

"5. Gerold also is known to have sons and grandsons by the same name."

Now this would be very valuable info, were it to be true - but I cannot find a single son or grandson named A/Udalrich. What primary sources is your historian using to back this up?

"6. Adalric would have inherited from his father of the Udalriching family -- so would not likely be found included among the Unruochings"

This would be useful were he to be found there, but he isn't. Unless you've found other docs?

"7. Circumstantial evidence points to this nephew Adalric's father as having been directly descended from Gerold."

What circumstantial evidence specifically? I can see nothing. Making an assumption and then relying on that assumption to 'prove' that assumption is circular reasoning, not circumstantial evidence.

All the Udalrichs I can find are in Gisela's family: (Giséle of Cysoing) not Gebhard's. (Gebhard Konradiner, count of the Lahngau)
- so I'm assuming that your historians are conflating Gebhard with someone in Gisela's family called Gerold. The question is on what basis are they are doing this? (ie what primary sources inform this leap?)

cf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conradines as the closest online representation of the Annals of Fulda that I can find online.

So, on the descent line of Gisele's gr grandfather: Gerold, count in Kraichgau and Anglachgau there are many Udalrichs, starting with Udalrich I of Vinsgau, Count of Argengau Pannonien of Breisgau of Bodensee, de Flavigny-sur-Ozerain Gisele's great uncle, and Udalrich II, Graf im Breisgau her cousin once removed, or this Udalrich IV von Argengau, Graf im Argengau her 2nd cousin once removed.

Sharon, to be fair, Gebhard Konradiner, count of the Lahngau was suggested by the OP (Livio).

I found Gerold, count in Kraichgau and Anglachgau with his duplicates to be the most likely progenitor as grandfather of Gerold III. Notice the similarity of names (Lahngau, Anglachgau). Maybe a good reason for confusion, idk.

Gerold

https://www.geni.com/search/matches?id=6000000005794085315&src=...

Gerold Von Vinzgau, graaf van Kraichgau en Anglachgau

And since you linked it I'm sure you must realize Gerold I (associated with Eric of Friuli, both dying in battle in the same region, same year: 799) had two sons (Gerold II and Udalrich). Udalrich had a son, Gerold III (associated with Baleric of Friuli).

And for anyone who may be confused at this point: Gerold I was Gisele of Cysoing's uncle; Gerold III her cousin. And some genealogists have expressed the possibility (not proof, no one is claiming that yet) -- of the latter being the father of Adalric through marriage with a sibling of St. Everard. Quoting Cawley, we see that the name Udalrich/Adalric (w/ variations) was typical for this family:

ii) GEROLD [III] (-after 826). "Uodalrichus comis" donated property "in pago Alsacinse in villa…Heinhaim" to Fulda for the soul of "germani mei Uotoni" by charter dated 1 May 803, signed by "Vodalrichi…Beboni Geroldi Vdilrichi Ratberti cum filiis suis qui consenserunt…". Einhard names "Geroldus comes" as one of the 15 witnesses of the testament of Emperor Charlemagne dated 811. Einhard's Annales name "Geroldum comitem" as imperial legate to Italy in 815. Einhard's Annales name "Bertricum palatii comitem" sending "Baldricum et Geroldum comites" to fight the Avars in 826. Einhard's Annales names "Bertricum palatii comitem et Baldricum et Geroldum comites" as imperial missi to "Bulgarorum regem" in 826

It is Gerold III who I believe was most likely to have fathered the Adalric/Odalrico/Odelric who eventually became King Berengar's "Count of the Sacred Palace" (chamberlain?) and northern Italian "marquis", who successfully petitioned the king many times for gifts on behalf of his friends.

And so I'm still studying with interest the texts in various languages, learning the history and keeping an eye out for some proof of Odelric/Adalric's precise parentage.

Nevertheless, I recently found that Eckhart has Adalric down as the son of Everard's brother, Unroch/Hunricus (no Geni profile for this person, unless it equates with the genderless NN profile). It is necessary to study Eckhart's very prolific works (mostly in Latin and/or German), in order to discover the basis for his reasoning.

Sorry, Gerold I was Gisele Cysoing's g-grandfather (not uncle). I think Gerold III would be her cousin. But Gerold III is not connected on Geni to his father, Udalrich I of Vinsgau, Count of Argengau Pannonien of Breisgau of Bodensee, de Flavigny-sur-Ozerain

(And while I'm here correcting my errors, I meant to say "Balderic", not Baleric).

None of this cousin link to Gisele implies/requires any connection to be created between the Franconian Conradiners of Gebhard Konradiner, count of the Lahngau

and the Swabian descendants of Gisele's gr grandpa Gerold, count in Kraichgau and Anglachgau

in order to place the Adalric as a nepos of Eberhard & Gisele.

Sorry Debra - cross posting. I've only seen your posts as I posted this.

Yes, I think we're saying the same thing.

Adalric the nepos of Eberhard and Gisele
is unlikely to be on the descent line of the Franconian Conradiners of Gebhard
and far more likely to be on the descent line of Gisele's family from Gerold, count in Kraichgau and Anglachgau

NOTHING so far connects Franconian Gebhard (Conradiner) to St. Eberhard, margrave & duke of Friuli and Gisele.

I'm assuming the confusion comes in from a conflation made in Europäische Stammtafeln for which there appears as yet to be no primary source evidence.

"Odelricus of the palace comes from the Suevi and the Vandals blood off of origin"

"Only with Odelrich, a native of Swabia, who later became the King's Palatine, did we get back on solid ground, because between the years 911 and 920 he was evidenced in a whole series of documents as an influential confidante of Berengar, whom he also followed by name on his coronation procession Seems to have accompanied Rome. However, his career came to a shameful end when, in 921, he met Adalbert von Ivrea, Count Gislebert of Bergamo."

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Gesta_Berengarii_imperatoris_B...

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Carmen_panegyricum_de_laudibus...

Regarding this: "Nevertheless, I recently found that Eckhart has Adalric down as the son of Everard's brother, Unroch/Hunricus (no Geni profile for this person, unless it equates with the genderless NN profile). It is necessary to study Eckhart's very prolific works (mostly in Latin and/or German), in order to discover the basis for his reasoning."

https://archive.org/stream/bub_gb_ZVEok0nUuGIC/bub_gb_ZVEok0nUuGIC_... is one place I can find Unroch > but it seems to be in a list of Everhard's children, not his siblings. No Adalric, but I didn't search for other spellings.
Eckhardt remains about 800 yrs later though, so his primary sources need to be found.

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000175027103895

Page 40 of the text. It is a spelling variation, "Adalroch".

What is the Doc?

The same one you linked in your 8:43 a.m. post (title is at the top of my doc page, and the link to the full text is included in the description).

Either in your title or in the Description add: Veterum monumentorum quaternio. By Johann Georg : von Eckhart · 1720

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