Hervé I, count of Mortagne - Is this correct?

Sharon Doubell -- the link that Marvin Loyd Welborn gives is archived, but the info for this profile at Medlands is the same -- https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORMANDY%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc38956198 -- do you have reasons we should not change it?

Apparently I did at some point, but the link that Marvin gives goes to a different discussion, and I remember this not.

Anne and Marvin - I do not have reasons NOT to change it :-) I know this profile not, too :-) I think I must have inherited Curatorship on it. I'll take a look and fix.

Alex Moes - Curator of Gerberge de Gatinais What are your thoughts?

HERVE [I] (-> 25 Jun 955)
x MELISENDE

• HILDEGARDE du Perche (-14 Apr c1021/22) x HUGUES Vicomte de Châteaudun, son of GEOFFROY Vicomte de Châteaudun & Ermengarde ---
• GERBERGE x GELDUIN Seigneur de Saumur

We seem to have Herve II married to Melisende
Hervé II, count of Mortagne

cf Mélissent de Mortagne

but sources are missing, and even thin on the ground for Cawley

Cawley has no primary sources for the marriage to Melisende, or for the parentage of their two proposed children.

I'll wait for more input before changing....

Sharon Doubell my initial thought was "Who?"

My follow up thought was "She's not an MP just one of the profiles i inherited from J."

Given (a) and (b) above, I can confidently say that I was TODAY years old when I first looked at this profile and so any opinion I may have of it is no more useful than that of anyone else taking a few minutes to look at it :)

Justin created Gerberge de Gatinais as a wife for Herve I back in 2009.

Originally her name was "daughter of Gaucelin de Gatinais", I cannot find who this Gaucelin is supposed to be. Gaucelin

Nor am I clear who Hervé II is supposed to be: Hervé II, count of Mortagne

I tried to circle around and identify anyone in this Geni family.

The Daughter of Hervé I, count of Mortagne and Gerberge de Gatinais on Geni is Hildegarde du Perche who is probably supposed to be https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORMANDY%20NOBILITY.htm#Hildegarde... who is married to HUGUES Vicomte de Châteaudun. Except on Geni she is married to Geoffroy du Perche, I

Geoffroy du Perche, I is, i am fairly confident, actually https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffroy_Ier_du_Perche who married a HELVISE (ie Helvise du Perche) according to Cawley https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/cfrachacha.htm#MelisendeChateaudun...

So in conclusion, I see no reason not to align Geni with Cawley except for the fact that Cawley himself has very little data for these people. At least aligning them with Cawley would give them some basis because at present they just look like the detritus of 13 years of merging.

My thoughts too.

All involved and managing agree?

Only because I am avoiding housework I looked around a little more and found MPs Geoffroy du Perche, vicomte de Châteaudun and Helvise of Montagne so these are the "real" Geoffroy du Perche, I and Helvise du Perche

maybe. I just read https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulcois_du_Perche#Hypoth%C3%A8ses_fam... again. I think Geni is aligned with the hypothesis shown which differs slightly from Cawley. "This reconstruction proposes to see Fulcois as a son of Geoffroy 1st Châteaudun and Mélisende likely a daughter of Rotrou Nogent."

So on second thoughts Geni is a mash-up of traditional genealogies and this newer hypothesis which is why we have two Geoffry I's: Geoffroy I, Vicomte de Chateaudun and Geoffroy du Perche, I?through=6000000007249389502

So I guess the way forward is to first to decide which reconstruction of Geoffroy du Perche, vicomte de Châteaudun's grandfather we want to present.

The problem, as with so much historical genealogy, is that any authoritative source is full of the word "probably" which Geni isn't very good at.

https://boydellandbrewer.com/9780851156255/family-trees-and-the-roo... seems to be the root of the newer reconstruction.

I'm often wary of using Settipani as genealogy because he's working in the area of creating historical narratives, and genealogy is in the business of showing records and not going further - but in this case, Cawley has no records and Settipani has reasonable logic - so, if we connect them at all (and I'm sure the idea of not doing that will get me blown out of the water here) I'd follow Settipani's theory as laid out in wikipedia.

From my locked down unhouseworked home to yours :-)

cf maybe useful https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_comtes_du_Perche

Hervé I count of Mortagne-au-Perche

son of Hugues I of Maine

brother of Hugues II of Maine

Hervé II de Mortagne

His family is not mentioned in contemporary documents. Its name is undoubtedly rorgonid . An earlier genealogy xvii th century and included in the cartulary of Saint-Denis de Nogent gives the family Rotrou Perche earls and viscounts of Châteaudun like descendant of Count Herve. At the origin of this family, there is a Hildegarde (v.935 † v.1020), sister of a Gerberge, married to Gilduin de Saumur, mother of one Hervé and grandmother of two Geoffroys. Chronologically, Hildegarde and Gerberge are probably two daughters of Count Hervé. The presence of first names Rorgonides (Hervé, Gauzbert) and Hugonides (Hugues, Fulcois) refers to the descendants of Count Hugues Ier from Maine, who probably married a Rorgonid. Chronologically Count HervéI st Maine would be a son of HughI st ,Count of Maine.

Settipani offered him as wife a daughter of the Rorgonide Gauzfred / Geoffroi, count of Nevers , viscount of Orleans , and possessor in the Gâtinais (cited around 935-942). His reasoning is as follows: the viscount of Orléans became a little later the county of Gâtinais, and Geoffroy Ferréol , son of Hugues du Perche , became counts of Gâtinais after the extinction of the first House of Gâtinais (the one resulting from of Viscount Geoffroy and founded by the Valois-Vexins, including the counts of Gâtinais Geoffroy Ier and his son Aubry le Tors below). For him, the rights of Geoffroy Ferréol over the Gâtinais can be explained, among other things, because he was descended from Viscount Gauzfred d'Orléans (cf. the table below: Hugues du Perche would be a great-grandson of Hervé I and his wife, daughter of Viscount Gauzfred ). But if the succession of the Gâtinais had been made on this basis, it would be more the counts of Anjou who would have inherited from the Gâtinais (because Gerberge, the wife of Foulques II, could be a daughter of Gauzfred). In fact, without necessarily rejecting a direct relationship between Gauzfred and Ferréol, we must rather agree that if Geoffroy Ferréol inherited the Gâtinais, it is as a maternal half-brother (uterine) of the previous count, Aubry le Tors (their mother: Béatrice de Mâcon ; by her successive beds, she undoubtedly transmitted the Gâtinais from one count dynasty to another) . Note, moreover, that Christian Settipani himself highlighted the probable relationship between Viscount Gauzfred and Aubry le Tors, via the latter's father, Count Geoffroy I , the first husband of Béatrice (see also the article Rorgonides ): the father of Count Geoffroy Ier would be Gautier Ier du Vexin, and his mother, Adèle, a daughter of Foulques II of Anjou x Gerberge above (probable daughter of Viscount Gauzfred!)
.https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herv%C3%A9_Ier_de_Mortagne (has a possible family tree sketch)

English Wikipedia has different parents for Fulcois and Melisende:

Melisende, Viscountess of Châteaudun (died before 1040)

daughter of Hugues I, Viscount of Châteaudun & Hildegarde of Perche. She inherited the fief from her brother in 1026.

x Fulcois, Count of Mortagne, (son of Rotrou, Seigneur de Nogent)

• Geoffrey II, Viscount of Châteaudun and Count of Perche
• Hugues x Béatrice de Mâcon, widow and heiress of the Count of Gâtinais.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melisende,_Viscountess_of_Ch%C3%A2tea...

English wikipedia on Fulcuich (Fulcois) still sees him as melisende's husband, though:

(died before 1032), Count of Mortagne, son of Rotrou, Seigneur de Nogent. It has been conjectured that Fulcuich's ancestor was Hervé I, Lord of Mortagne-au-Perche, through Hildegarde de Mortagne de Perche, daughter of Herve I, wife of Rotrou.

Fulcuich married Melisende, Viscountess of Châteaudun, daughter of Hugues, Viscount of Châteaudun, and Hildegarde of Perche. Fulcuich and Melisende had two children:

Geoffrey II Viscount of Châteaudun, I Count of Perche.
Hugues du Perche.
Fulcuich was presumably succeeded as count by his son Geoffrey.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulcuich

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/cfrachacha.htm#FulcoisNogent

a) FULCOIS . The primary source which confirms his parentage has not yet been identified. Seigneur de Nogent-le-Rotrou. Comte de Mortagne. m MELISENDE Vicomtesse de Châteaudun, daughter of [HUGUES [I] Vicomte de Châteaudun & his wife ---] (-before 1040). The primary source which confirms her parentage and marriage has not yet been identified. Fulcois & his wife had two children:

i) GEOFFROY (-murdered Chartres [1039/40]). His parentage is confirmed by the charter dated to [1065] under which "Rotrochus comes de Mauritania et mea uxor Adeliz et filii nostri Rotrochus et ceteri nostri infantes" donated property to Saint-Vincent du Mans, for the anniversary of "avi mei Fulcuich comitis et avunculi mei Hugonis et patris mei vicecomitis Gaufridi"[866]. "Hildegardis, vicecomitissa Castridunensis" donated property "alodum meum de Bello Monte" to "sanctissimo Petro Carnotensis cœnobii", with the consent of "filio meo Hugone, archiepiscopo Turonorum", by charter dated to 1020, signed by "Hugo archipræsul., Gausfridi nepotis eius…Helgaudi filii archiepiscopi…"[867]. Vicomte de Châteaudun 1004. "…Gaufredi vicecomitis" subscribed the charter dated 1004 under which "Gislebertus prepositus" recorded a donation[868]. "Gauffridus Castridunensium vicecomes" founded the abbey of Saint-Denis de Nogent with the consent of "domine meo Odone Palatino" by charter dated [20 Jul 1031/19 Jul 1032], subscribed by "Hugonis filii domini Gaufridi vicecomitis, Rotroci fratris eius, Eleusie matris eorum"[869]. "Gauffredus vicecomes Dunensis Castri" made a donation to Saint-Denis de Nogent by charter dated 1040, witnessed by "Hugo filius Gauffridi, Rotrocus frater eius"[870]. He was murdered in front of the cathedral of Chartres. m HELVISE [Elisabeth], daughter of --- (-after [20 Jul 1031/19 Jul 1032]). 1007/[1029/31]. "Hugonis filii domini Gaufridi vicecomitis, Rotroci fratris eius, Eleusie matris eorum" subscribed the charter dated [20 Jul 1031/19 Jul 1032] under which "Gauffridus Castridunensium vicecomes" founded the abbey of Saint-Denis de Nogent[871]. Geoffroy & his wife had three children:

(a) GEOFFROY (-[1015/28] or after). The primary source which confirms his parentage has not yet been identified.
(b) HUGUES . "Hugonis filii domini Gaufridi vicecomitis, Rotroci fratris eius, Eleusie matris eorum" subscribed the charter dated [20 Jul 1031/19 Jul 1032] under which "Gauffridus Castridunensium vicecomes" founded the abbey of Saint-Denis de Nogent[872]. Vicomte de Châteaudun. 1007/[1039/40]. "Gauffredus vicecomes Dunensis Castri" made a donation to Saint-Denis de Nogent by charter dated 1040, witnessed by "Hugo filius Gauffridi, Rotrocus frater eius"[873]. m ADELA, daughter of ---. "Filius eius Hugo…[et] uxorem eius Adilam" confirmed a donation of "Gausfredus vicecomes", recorded in a charter dated to [1036/40][874].
(c) ROTROU (-1 Mar [1080]). "Hugonis filii domini Gaufridi vicecomitis, Rotroci fratris eius, Eleusie matris eorum" subscribed the charter dated [20 Jul 1031/19 Jul 1032] under which "Gauffridus Castridunensium vicecomes" founded the abbey of Saint-Denis de Nogent[875]. Vicomte de Châteaudun. Comte de Mortagne 1058.
- COMTES de PERCHE, COMTES de MORTAGNE.

ii) HUGUES du Perche . His parentage is confirmed by the charter dated to [1065] under which "Rotrochus comes de Mauritania et mea uxor Adeliz et filii nostri Rotrochus et ceteri nostri infantes" donated property to Saint-Vincent du Mans, for the anniversary of "avi mei Fulcuich comitis et avunculi mei Hugonis et patris mei vicecomitis Gaufridi"[876]. Comte de Gâtinais, de iure uxoris.

So everbody (except one medlands entry that contradicts itself twice elsewhere) agrees that Fulcois married Melisende (although there are no primary sources), and we do not actually have confirmation in sources of either of their parents.

Which is what is shown here: Mélisende, viscountess of Châteaudun and in Private User's CN, married to Fulcois, Seigneur de Nogent-le-Rotrou. Comte de Mortagne

Private User has done a great write up on her profile.

This Melisende de Nogent le Rotrou and Fulcois de montagne au Perche were recently inserted as grandparents of Mélisende, viscountess of Châteaudun & Fulcois, Seigneur de Nogent-le-Rotrou. Comte de Mortagne which seems so cooincidental as to stretch credulity without any sources added. Janet I'm isolating them as duplicates, and invite you to come and help us solve the puzzle. Add yourself as manager to the other two.

Jason Scott Wills I would suggest with David Bigelow that the parents of Fulcois, Seigneur de Nogent-le-Rotrou. Comte de Mortagne are too much in doubt to be recorded as such on Geni? Your thoughts?

Cawley seems to be saying that is a sourced fact that Geoffrey and Hugh are Fulcois' children:
https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/cfrachacha.htm#FulcoisNogent

i) GEOFFROY (-murdered Chartres [1039/40]). His parentage is confirmed by the charter dated to [1065] under which "Rotrochus comes de Mauritania et mea uxor Adeliz et filii nostri Rotrochus et ceteri nostri infantes" donated property to Saint-Vincent du Mans, for the anniversary of "avi mei Fulcuich comitis et avunculi mei Hugonis et patris mei vicecomitis Gaufridi"[866]. "Hildegardis, vicecomitissa Castridunensis" donated property "alodum meum de Bello Monte" to "sanctissimo Petro Carnotensis cœnobii", with the consent of "filio meo Hugone, archiepiscopo Turonorum", by charter dated to 1020, signed by "Hugo archipræsul., Gausfridi nepotis eius…Helgaudi filii archiepiscopi…"[867]. Vicomte de Châteaudun 1004. "…Gaufredi vicecomitis" subscribed the charter dated 1004 under which "Gislebertus prepositus" recorded a donation[868]. "Gauffridus Castridunensium vicecomes" founded the abbey of Saint-Denis de Nogent with the consent of "domine meo Odone Palatino" by charter dated [20 Jul 1031/19 Jul 1032], subscribed by "Hugonis filii domini Gaufridi vicecomitis, Rotroci fratris eius, Eleusie matris eorum"[869]. "Gauffredus vicecomes Dunensis Castri" made a donation to Saint-Denis de Nogent by charter dated 1040, witnessed by "Hugo filius Gauffridi, Rotrocus frater eius"[870]. He was murdered in front of the cathedral of Chartres. m HELVISE [Elisabeth], daughter of --- (-after [20 Jul 1031/19 Jul 1032]). 1007/[1029/31]. "Hugonis filii domini Gaufridi vicecomitis, Rotroci fratris eius, Eleusie matris eorum" subscribed the charter dated [20 Jul 1031/19 Jul 1032] under which "Gauffridus Castridunensium vicecomes" founded the abbey of Saint-Denis de Nogent[871]. Geoffroy & his wife had three children:

ii) HUGUES du Perche . His parentage is confirmed by the charter dated to [1065] under which "Rotrochus comes de Mauritania et mea uxor Adeliz et filii nostri Rotrochus et ceteri nostri infantes" donated property to Saint-Vincent du Mans, for the anniversary of "avi mei Fulcuich comitis et avunculi mei Hugonis et patris mei vicecomitis Gaufridi"[876]. Comte de Gâtinais, de iure uxoris.

cf Geoffroy du Perche, vicomte de Châteaudun (x Helvise of Montagne) and Hugues du Perche, Comte de Gatinais

There appears to me to be no good enough indication that Melisende is their mother though. Perhaps their mother should have a NN profile created for them?