Rabbi Yitzhak HaCohen Katz, [of Galata] - Birth Year Adjustment

I strongly disagree.

1) the degree of the specificity of the information (ie the names and titles and positions) makes me very skeptical that this is based off of a primary (or even secondary) source. Meaning the degree of clarity makes me suspicious
2) as I stated, given the degree of specificity and given the fact that 90% of the information is mentioned nowhere, I’m inclined to believe that the “facts” of the story are no more that tidbits of information that in some ways connect to the story of Yitzchak’s expulsion
3) I’ve found no information regarding a Portuguese congregation at Salonica during the time period in question
4) the information presented as fact is riled with mistakes, such as the fact that while “Yitzchak Karo” is presented as the Beis Yosef’s father, the latter’s father was actually Efrayim. If the document was correct, it would be unlikely to be mistaken about the name, especially of such a well known rabbi. If Yitzchak Karo is a reference to the Beis Yosef’s great grandfather, he would not have been alive in 1492
5) I’ve found nothing connecting Yitzchak to any of the other rabbis and mother connecting any of them to each other
6) the Sefer this was found in was written in 1864 and it not only doesn’t cite information like most of the other sources have, but it adds information that has never been mentioned before

Therefore, I think that the mention of the other Rabbis and the details is nothing more than “name dropping” and an attempt to provide details to a story so old that any valid attempt to find out about would be futile.

Eli Rubin Your points are well taken, The better way of putting the birth year of 1450 hypothesis is that 'IF' the information in the 1864 document is accurate then it would seem that the birth year would have to be moved forward for R' Yitzach and consequently also for his father and for his son. I have not seen any sources so far of the birth years of R' Akiva the Elder or R' Yitzach. The hypothetical birth years (ca. 1430, ca. 1450, and ca. 1470) and places of birth (Castile) for all three generations are rebuttable presumptions based only on the far-from-certain veracity of the 1864 book stating that: R' Yitzach was among the 20,000 of Lisbon in 1496. If this is true, then is would seem impossible for him to have been born circa 1400, and his father circa 1350. I am now trying to obtain the book listed as a source for these earlier birth years. Does anyone know anything more about the source(s) of these early birth years?

I find it difficult to explain why no mention is made of the entire family in the long list of rabbis from that period presented in the Salonika Yizkor Book (https://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/Thessalonika/thev1_003.html, see Addenda to Chapter 3 at bottom).

Another question would be: how reliable is the 1864 book? Is anything known about the author? Does the author describe his sources?

Eli, When you have a moment could you please copy and paste #15 in Hebrew text from the 1864 book here as you did with #16 and #17? This is very helpful to me. Thanks. Adam

The Portuguese refugees, many being themselves of Castilian origin, may have associated with the Congregation of 'Kastilla' (1492-3). There is a book which apparently includes the names of families associated with each congregation during this period: Isaac Emmanuel, “Gedolei Saloniki" (1936) https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transc...

רבי עקיבא הכהן מאובן, מנשיאי ישראל בדורו גדול בתורה ובעושר, שימש כשר ונשיא באובן ישן אולם בגלל עלילה מצד שונאי ישראל אשר התקנאו בעושרו הרב ובמעמדו הום נאלץ לנטוש את המקום וקבע דירתו בפראג הבירה. גם במקום מושבו החדש נתמנה עם בואו לנשיא (פרימוס) היהודים ורב כבודו בחצר המלכות ובין הגוים. הרבה לפזר לצדקה וסיפק לחגים את כל צרכי עניי העיר והסביבה. נולדו לו שנים עשרה בנים ושלש עשרה בנות מהן השיא שתים עשרה לכהנים ואת הבת הי"ג, מרת יוכבד השיא להג"ר שבתי שפטיל הלוי איש הורוויץ, בן למשפחה מפורסמות זו. ששימש אחר כן כדיין ור"מ בפראג, בן הג"ר ישעי' הלוי איש הורוויץ (רבי שבתי שפטיל היה אביו של הג"ר אברהם הלוי הורוויץ, בעל מחבר יש נוחלין" ועוד, אבי בעל השל"ה) וכך עלה רבי עקיבא לדוכן עם כ"ד בניו וחתניו בקיימו את הכתוב כ"ה תברכו את בני ישראל". רבי עקיבא נדב שלש פרוכות רקומות זהב ממש אשר פארו את בית הכנסת אלט ניי (או על תנאי) את פנחס-שוהל שהקים הג"ר משולם זלמן הלוי הורוויץ ואת בית הכנסת הישן אשר בפראג (במגילת היחש שנספחה לספר חשבה לטובה מסופר שרבי עקיבא נפטר בשנת רנ"ו יתכן שכאן טעות. הלא סבו רבי עקיבא הכהן אב"ד סאלוניקי מגולי פורטוגל היה, וגירוש פורטוגל בשנת רנ"ב היה ואין להניח שיצא משם אחרי הפרעות הראשונות בליסאבון בשנת ר"ט, כי אז לא היו מכנים אותו מגולי פורטוגל" בסאלוניקי. שנית, באותה מגילה מסופר על פרוכת רקומה זהב שהקדיש רבי עקיבא לביה"כ בפראג, שהוקמה על ידי רבי משולם זלמן הורוויץ רק בשנת רצ"ה. שלישית - רבי עקיבא סבו אב"ד סאלוניקי נפטר בסביבת שנת ר"פ, בחיי נכדו רבי עקיבא מאובן.

I just skimmed gedolei Salonica and he mentions the family Ben Ardut that came from Aragon in 1498 that claimed descent from Eli HaKohen. This seems relevant to Akiva’s family.

Page 171 of https://download.hebrewbooks.org/downloadhandler.ashx?req=36646

I just googled the family Ben ardut and it appears that a Yosef Ben Azriel HaKohen Ardut S”T gave an approbation to the book of responsa by Samuel de Medina in the 1500s in Salonica.

http://benardoutlite.com/The-Family-in-Salonika

Eli Rubin Thanks for #15. I have a technical question: how are you able to copy and paste Hebrew from a pdf. Whenever I try, the pasted version has the words reversed and sometimes even the letters reversed. I want to copy from the pdf and paste into a Word document. Is there a way?

I am not sure I see a significant connection between Yosef ben Azriel Ardut and Akiva the Alter besides the alleged descent from Eli (which can apply to almost any Cohen, even if not closely related).

I take screenshots and Google photos let’s me copy the text. I think that there might be something to the Ben Ardut family… I’ve only heard of a tradition of descent from Eli in one other place.

I found only two references to someone named Yitzach HaCohen in the Gedolei Saloniki, One is in a list of persons from either Catalunya or Andalucia (can't figure out the list to well, maybe you can: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuwT-4qnkJLBjzeL5gsz66H1yXRZ?e=FupFbe) ; the other is grave entry #60 from 1530 belonging to a Nathan ben Yitzach HaCohen (on page 67 of the book; maybe this is a son of R' Yitzach of Galata, who knows.....). I stopped browsing at 1573. Other than this I see no even remotely possible references to R' Akiva the Elder, or his descendants. This is probably because this book is based on the grave markers and it appears that none of the three was buried there. Perhaps R' Akiva the Elder went with his son to Galata and was buried there (his son R' Yitzach is buried). R' Akiva of Uban is buried in Prague (although his marker has not been found). Ah well, this pretty much ends the documentary trail as far as I can see. I will still try to check that book by Margoshes given as a source on the profile.

Can you figure out what #15 is saying about the years at the bottom? He seems to be saying that R' Akiva the Elder would not be called a 'Portuguese' exile unless he got out of Iberia quite late (I guess between 1496 and 1506). I think the year being given for the death or R'Akiva of Uban is 1495 (not sure thought).

He quoted rabbi Meshullam Zalman Horowitz but then he said that something is off with the years.
1) Rabbi Akiva at the Elder was from the exiles of Portugal, from the deportation in 1492, and therefore it should not be assumed that he left after the first disturbances in Lisbon in 1448, because then they would not call him "exiles of Portugal" in Thessaloniki.
2) the same source tells of a gold embroidered curtain that Rabbi Akiva the Younger dedicated to a synagogue in Prague, established by Rabbi Meshulam Zalman Horowitz only in 1535.
Third - Rabbi Akiva the Elder died around 1520, in the life of his grandson Rabbi Akiva other Younger.

It says Yitzchak was from catalonia

Private User Eli Rubin

I guess (I have no verified information) that this is what happened:
I once read that some of the Jews deported from Spain moved to Portugal until they were deported from there as well.
Therefore, I estimate that the family originally from Spain, in the deportation of the Jews moved for several years to live in Portugal and in the deportation of the Jews from there moved to live in ssaloniki.
Whoever wrote that Isaac was born in ssaloniki apparently appreciated this because he saw that his father was A.B.D. ssaloniki.
We also know that Rabbi Akiva is a descendant of
Rabbi Yehudah HeChassid
Through an ancient mother

In addition, a long time ago I talked with Waxstein about this branch,And to the best of my memory he told me that in geni there is a mistake in this branch,
HaGaon Rabbi Akiva HaCohen Katz, of Ofen
Was from another family at all, and he is not the son of
Rabbi Yitzhak HaCohen Katz, [of Galata]

Because it's all from my memory, and I'm not convinced, and because
It is impossible to talk with Waxstein in the near future and ask him, it is very worthwhile to examine the subject
I am a descendant of Of both (but from different branches),
And I attach my connection (Wakstein confirmed to me that this is the right connection) to Rabbi Akiva Katz
I hope the information I have written will help in research on the family, and we can go back many generations

This is the connection between Rabbi Akiva Katz and me
https://www.geni.com/path/Haim-Wartski-Hachoen+is+related+to+%D7%94...

Randy Schoenberg Since no grave markers have been found to my knowledge, dates of death are not sourced. Only ranges or circas or befores/afters based on other biographical information are possible at this stage. Are you aware whether the grave of R' Yitzhak in Galata has ever been found?

I keep going over the sections of the document that I mentioned previously about Akiva the Younger, but they keep referring to each Akiva ambiguously so it’s hard to determine which one is being referred to. I’ll add the text of the documents if they haven’t all been added thus far.

And about his grave, I don’t believe so unfortunately

Why not leave the death years blank?