Rabbi Yehudah HeChassid - Discussion of Connection Between Yehuda HaChassid and Akiva HaCohen Katz of Salonika

Private User

I spoke with Wakstein on this subject two years ago, and if I remember correctly: the Maharsha is a direct descendant of Shmuel the Prophet (and of course they are both from a Levite family)
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however, the Maharsha is a descendant of Rabbi Yehuda HaChassid, but through ancient mothers. .. I do not remember that Wakstein saying that Rabbi Yehuda HaChassid was from the Choanim family, for one simple reason: we did not mention Rabbi Akiva Kaz at all.

Private User I see our friend Harlow's name all over some of those profiles above, so best to double check all of them!

Private User Private User

The Maharsha is now connected in geni as son after son to Rabbi Yehuda HaChassid, and as I wrote, the Maharsha is his descendant through ancient mothers, so need to check every name between the Maharsha and Rabbi Yehuda HaChassid,and fix, and find out who the ancient mothers were.

Haim Wartski, HaCohen Thanks for the reply. If I am understanding correctly then based on your information it could be possible for the Yehuda HaChassid patriline to ALSO be Levitic.

Private User There is a conundrum: if Harlow profiles are 'locked' and he is unresponsive to discussion, why bother trying to improve the branches where these profiles appear?

Returning to the main issue: let me pose the question from the other direction: what evidence is there that the old Kalonymos family (Meshulam Kalonymos Hagadol etc.) is a Levitic lineage?

I should add that the people who opened the profiles in geni were not wrong, in rabbinic literature these names appear, because many years ago someone wanted to connect the Maharsha to Rabbi Yehuda HaChassid as son after son (for religious people, this is important, ), so they invented a list that was partly incorrect, and it was copied to many books

Private User

To the best of my memory Rabbi Yehuda HaChassid was not from a family of Levites,

Private User

I do not know Harlow, but this week Samuel Kam explained to me about him... I think
That curator in geni can enter any profile even if it is locked, and correct / delete details written in it

Private User I don't mean "don't change stuff", but rather "don't assume anything you see is correct" when it comes so Harlow. We definitely do need to fix the huge mess he left.

There's a lot of info on the Kalonymous family (with references) on Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalonymos_family. Nothing says anything about them being Leviim.

I've looked through a number of books on my shelf (Ben-Sasson, Seltzer etc). There's tons of biographical sketches of various members of that family, but nothing that indicates either Cohanic or Leviitic status.

Private User

I looking for information about Rabbi Yehuda HaChassid, I found some information that could clarify the subject a bit. I attach information from two books:
https://beta.otzar.org/#/b/105732/p/-1/t/1640033077219/fs/NemLgWN2Q...
and
https://beta.otzar.org/#/b/157682/p/13/t/1640033077219/fs/NemLgWN2Q...
It should be noted that in no source is it written that he is from a Levit family, it is also written that the Maharsha is his descendant

one more source:
https://beta.otzar.org/#/b/105732/p/64/t/1640033077219/fs/FQ88aIJs5...
(sectuin:154-156)

What I am gathering so far is that a) there is no evidence of a Levitic ancestry in the old Kalonymos family, b) there is no evidence of Levitic status for Yehuda HaChassid (which would make sense as he is a descendant of the Kalonymos family), and c) the Maharsha is definitely HaLevi.

If all of the above holds water then there are some major corrections to propose in order to detach Levitic branches from the Yehuda HaChassid and Kalonymos tree: 1) Rabbi Dov Berish Halevi Ashkenazi who is the first person designated HaLevi on the tree descending from Yehuda HaChassid, should be severed from Moshe Zalman ben Yehudah haChassid; 2) the Todros Abulafia, Halevy branch, which is clearly Levitic, should be severed from Rabbi Yehuda ben Kalonymus I believe this would take care of the major status conflicts.

In any case, for the purposes of this discussion it now seems that there won't be any obvious leads into Spain from or near Yehuda HaChassid. This means I have no clues as to how he could be related to R' Akiva.

Nothing further......

Private User

As for the Maharsha (who is from a family of Levites), and as for Rabbi Yehuda (who has no proof that he is from a family of Levites) it is true
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Regarding Rabbi Yehuda Akiva and being a descendant of Rabbi Yehuda, if the origin of Rabbi Akiva is from Spain, and the origin of Rabbi Yehuda is Ashkenazi, I wondered who was the ancestor of Rabbi Akiva and how did she get to Ashkenaz? Or vice versa, it is possible that Rabbi Akiva had an ancient father who came to Ashkenaz and married there, and they returned to live in Spain.
Otherwise, I have no idea how Rabbi Akiva is a descendant of Rabbi Yehuda (although many sources write so)

Itche Zalmanov Can you she any light on this 5 year old discussion? Are you okay with separating Rabbi Dov Berish Halevi Ashkenazi from Moshe Zalman ben Yehudah haChassid or do you know something we aren't aware of yet? Thanks if you are still monitoring.

Private User

In the discussions in the "ozar hachohma" forum, to which you attached the link, there is a link to Wakstein's remarks on the subject, which confirms what I wrote: The Maharsha himself testifies that he is a descendant of Rabbi Yehuda HaChassid, but the connection is through ancient mothers
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There were those who wrote the relationship as son after son, but the things they wrote were not true.
I must make another remark that I have encountered many times on the subject:

For a reason I do not understand, many religious people who are descendants of an important person in Jewish history, but the connection is through ancient mothers, changing the family tree of their families and writing that the connection is son after son, the things they write are copied to many books, thus fiction becomes "true".

As someone in the discussion wrote: רוב כתבי היוחסין הם הזיות ודמיונות.

It would be great if someday I am able to obtain a ydna identification for the old Kalomynos family. On GENI at present there appear to be no modern patriline descendants of the old Kalonymos line, but maybe it is because genealogist haven't yet connected this big and widespread family with more modern families.

A few years ago I was wondering if possibly Klonimus, The Hassid of Speyer father of the first Shapiro, might be connected to the old Kalonymus line that went to Speyer (for example: Rav Kalonymus "HaZaken"). At that time I dismissed the idea because the Hassid of Speyer line is not Levitic and II was under the false assumption that the old Kalonymus line is Levitic. Since it is now presumed that the old Kalonymus line is not Levitic, I am wondering again about the possibility that the old Kalonymus line becomes the modern Hassid of Speyer (Shapiro) line. This is highly speculative: a research hypothesis requiring much more evidence to establish. If provable and since we do have a ydna identification for the Shapiro line (G-FGC11007), this would mean the old Kalonymus line may also be G-FGC11007. Thinking speculatively, are there any other modern lineages that may be able to connect circumstantially to the old Kalonymus line?

Private User

First, from a very bad experience with the forum on the site "ozar achohma" I would not attach much importance to the things written there, and I would check everything without trusting them.

Second, unfortunately for religious people women are not really considered, but only son after son, and therefore, quite a few genealogies of great people in Judaism have been changed the family tree, to show that they are descendants son after son to someone important.

I am a descendant of the Klonimus family from a large number of branches, but, it is always through my grandmother and her mother.