Yuta [Juta] (Fischel) Lieberman - Comprehensive Fix to Klausner-Saba-HaCohen Branch Involving Der Hoicher, Etc.

Private User many thanks.

Am I correct in understanding, therefore, that there is one rabbi Zechariia and two Yutels?

What evidence is this based off on?

Shabbat shalom.

Private User In reaching this interpretation I have used: 1) the Gelles Klausner tree (https://1drv.ms/b/s!AuwT-4qnkJLBlTrnfHSOz8sMsrgd?e=pQTh7T), 2) the Everels-Altshuler and Lipshitz trees prepared by Chaim Freedman (https://www.davidicdynasty.org/descendant-family-trees/), 3) the Loeb Saba tree based on Frumkin (http://www.loebtree.com/tilla.html), and 4) the Loeb Kloizner tree based on Binstock (http://www.loebtree.com/kloizner.html), as well as the GENI tree and any and all info posted on the various related profiles,

In my version there are two Yutes but really only one is involved in the Klausner and Saba trees (and that is Yute bat Ephraim Cohen who I see as having two spouses: Ayeh Leyb der Hoicher and Aryeh Leyb Saba 'Shpoler Zeide I'), and from these two spouses emerge two Zacharia Mendels: 1) Zacharia Mendel of Belz also known as Be'er Heitev,, son of Aryeh Leyb 'Der Hoicher', and 2) is Zacharia Mendel Loeb son of Aryeh Leyb 'Shpoler Zeide i'.

The reason I believe there are two Zacharia Mendels b. the same Yute is that Lewin via Frumkin mentions the latter (http://www.loebtree.com/tilla.html) and the former is said to have replaced his father as a community rabbi of Cracow (https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transc...). I do not see any evidence of the Shpoler Zeide I being a community rabbi of Cracow.

Another slight correction since yesterday involves one of the other Yutes, the one who is a daughter of Chaim Loew. Although I have kept her as a spouse of Zachariah HaNavi on my tree, I do not make her the mother of Der Hoicher. I believe the true mother of Der Hoicher is Tsirke Lipschuts (this correction is shown on the now replaced posted trees from yesterday).

It really won't be too difficult to fix the GENI tree for someone with experience in correcting tangled GENI trees.

Signing off until next week.......

PS: There is still a Loew in the Klausner tree (she is the sister of the Maharal of Prague, name unknown) who married an earlier Zachariah Mendel (the one from about 1520).

Private User thank you very much for the information. Shabbat shalom.

Private User, anyhow there is still a connection to Rashi. Tsirkek Lipschuts descends from him.

https://www.geni.com/path/RASHI+is+related+to+Sirke-Kloisner?from=6...

Private User

According to "Elef Margaliot" there are 5 versions regarding the identity of Rabbi Zechariah HaNavi's wife,
The version that seems to the researchers to be the most correct and reliable is that she was the daughter of Rabbi Chaim (the brother of the Maharal of Prague) from his first wife, the daughter of Rabbi Ahron SCHLACKENWERTH

Private User

When you look at my branch in the names of children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren of Yuta, it does seem that this version seems to be the correct version.
I am attaching the link in my branch

https://www.geni.com/path/Haim-Wartski-Hachoen+is+related+to+%D7%A8...

Haim Wartski, HaCohen Thanks for these data. I find the alluded to interpretation questionable for two reasons: 1) HaNavi and the daughter of R' Chaim are of different generations (with a space of as much as 50 years between them), and 2) there is a prior pairing between another older Zachariah Mendel Klausner and a sister of R' Chaim: wife, Zecharia Mendel Kloizner, "the Elder" [Maharal sister #5] making the pairing between HaNavi and R' Chaim's daughter one between first cousins, once removed (not impossible, but perhaps fabricated). It seems more likely, given some of the other evidence that the second pairing between a ZM Klausner and a female bat Loew (this time daughter of R' Chaim) is not as believable a construction as Tsirke Lipshitz. A few other other considerations: there appear to be no other offspring of this daughter of R' Chaim and HaNavi, and the Maharal tree is one of those trees many have tried to connect to over the years (this may be less so regarding Lipshitz). Do you know what is the evidence in support the granddaughter of R' Shlackenwerth? I wonder if this connection is in Unbroken Chain?

Private User

Elef Margaliot do not state why this version is acceptable to them, they only write that this version seems the most reliable and correct.

In all the huge research I do, to the best of my memory,I have never come across a name called Tsirke Lipshitz

Thank you, Haim Wartski, HaCohen. That's really helpful. I do not think this Yuta is connected to Rashi.

I will look at elef margilot.

Shabbat shalo,.

Haim Wartski, HaCohen, Lifshitz is the maiden name. Married name is Klausner, I believe.

Private User, is this who you are referring to: Sirke Kloisner?

Private User
Private User

I tried to find new information on the subject, and did not find ...Regarding Sirke Lifshitz: Her father is my great uncle (through the Lifshitz family), and her mother is my great aunt (through the Frenkel Teomim family), but this information does not help the topic we are discussing here

Haim Wartski, HaCohen I believe she could be Zecharia's wife.

Private User

My research only deals with my great-grandparents (so at first I did not know her name, and it turns out she is my great cousin), everything is possible, to the best of my memory I have never checked about her...

If I understood correctly AdamLooking for the identity of Zechariah's wife,

as I wrote, according to Elef Margaliot,There are 5 versions regarding her identity, the version that seems to them the most reliable version being that she was Yuta (daughter of Rabbi Chaim, the elder brother of the Maharal from Prague)

Haim Wartski, HaCohen, I see.

Did you ever hear of a link of Rabbi Zecharia to the Lipkin (Yisrael Salanter’s) family? The Y-DNA indicates a possible connection.

Adam CHERSON

Yoav ARAN

I checked (in my ibranch-that I attached), I have come so far to

אריה לייב קלוזינר/קלויזנר, אב"ד קרקוב
And right now I have verification from me to him (inclusive)

In the book:
יש מנחילין(page:366),
There is also the wording of his daughter's tombstone:
פרל פרנקל-תאומים (קלויזנר)
So everything is verified ... As for the sequel, tomorrow or in the next few days I will try to verify the information written in geni but, in any case we will reach a situation where we can not know for sure who was Rabbi Zechariah's wife
Yoav ARAN
I have not heard of it, and unfortunately, I am not versed in D.N.A. test

Private User

Private User
The more I check, the more questions arise, and I will give two examples (all according to Elef Margaliot):
1:
according to the book:
Rabbi Benyamin Beinish Mendels of Posen

His wife was the daughter of the Maharam of Lublin, and not as it now appears in Geni, but to the best of my memory in other sources it is written as it appears now, what is the truth? Was he married twice? I have no answer (at present)
2:
According to the book,It is possible that the wife of Rabbi Zechariah the Elder
Rabbi Zecharia Mendel, the Elder, of Posen) [Maharal brother-in-law]
she was not the Maharal's from Prague sister, but his aunt (his father's sister) .. Again, the book does not state with certainty what the correct information is.

Private User
Haim Wartski, HaCohen
The question for now is: what to do when there are so many conflicting spouse interpretations? Should the GENI tree favor one over the others, without real confidence? Or, as I believe preferable, should the person be listed with no 'official' spouse, the profile be locked, and then in the 'About' section list the many alternatives. If GENI picks one spouse then it gives an appearance that may turn out to be false. If the profile is not locked then there will be an endless circle of new researchers thinking they have the answer, leading to the mess there is now, which has been developing for many years already.

It seems there is significant doubt as to the spouses of: 1) Zacharia Mendl the Elder of Posen: has two spouse options (the sister or the aunt of R' Chaim), 2) Rabbi Benyamin Beinish Mendels of Posen (who has two spouses on GENI and now a third mentioned in Elef Margoliot), 3) Zacahriah HaNavi who as discussed above has two spouse options), 4) Aryeh Leyb 'Der Hoicher' whose spouse Yuteh appears to be married to another 5) Aryeh Leyb 'Shpoler Zeide I' So would it not be safer and more accurate to simply leave all of these five persons without an 'official' spouse and then explain in the 'About' section what are the options?

Private User

Because no information is certain, I think the is best is to leave the situation as it is, in the profiles Write what we know, and lock the profiles so that it is not possible to make a change without curator..

If I remember correctly, on the side of the Shapira family (in the generations close to Rashi), I have an ancient grandfather who could not determine who his wife was,And this was written in his wife's profile, when I came to investigate and read that it was impossible to know her identity, I left this branch.

Private User Haim Wartski, HaCohen agreed.

If we find it to be true that the Lipkins descend from this family then it is more likely we will be able to solve this. This is because many scholars are probably interested in Rabbi Yisrael Salanter's Yichus and will thus seek to solve this.

Haim Wartski, HaCohen -- does Elef Margaliot list any of The Prophet R' Aryeh Zachariah of Kracow Lieberman's ancestry?

Private User

I am a descendant of
Rabbi Arye-Leib Fishles Kalusner/Kloisner, [der Hoicher of Cracow]

I have no connection to:
The Prophet R' Aryeh Zachariah of Kracow Lieberman

Haim Wartski, HaCohen

The Prophet R' Aryeh Zachariah of Kracow Lieberman and Rabbi Zecharya Mendel Kalusziner/Klausner, of Krakow may be duplicates.

Private User I have just discovered something quite important.

As you may know, Rabbi Ze'ev Wolf Lipkin is said to have been from the Shlah HaKadosh's family.

And what do you know -- Tzirke nee Lifshitz is related to the Shlah.

Along with the fact that dates-wise it makes most sense, this adds to the likelihood that she is Rabbi Zecharia's wife.

As I mentioned, if we prove the Lipkin connection to this family then the relevant Rabbinic scholars will probably be motivated to and able to conclude this confusion. Now, though, I am fairly sure it is Tzirke.

See this for Tzirke's relation to the Shlah: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XlGrCciTkDIuMWdJ9i7huxVzDK4ZdpHK/v...

Haim Wartski, HaCohen
Private User

Whatever we say here, all these profiles are locked even to 'About' additions so only curators can do anything except start another discussion of which there are already plenty. Absent further intervention by curators, it will be up to each individual researcher to evaluate what has been said and shown and decide for themselves..sauve qui peut. Thank you both for an interesting discussion.

Private User

What you have discovered makes good sense and adds another important clue to the investigation.

Private User Haim Wartski, HaCohen

I echo Adam's words and thank you both for this interesting discussion. For now we'll try to find the Likpin connection and perhaps return to this if it is found.

Shavua tov to both of you, and thanks again.

P.s. it seems there is evidence here Rabbi Zecharia's wife was Sirke:

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=48011&st=&pgnum=768

Private User

Private User

To the best of my understanding
Rabbi Arye-Leib Fishles Kalusner/Kloisner, [der Hoicher of Cracow]

and

The Prophet R' Aryeh Zachariah of Kracow Lieberman

hey are two different people who have three things in common:
1: The name Aryeh
2: The nickname the prophet (which is misleading, because of the nickname people tend to think it is the same person)
3: that they were from Krakow

They may have been relatives. In the rabbinical families there were many marriages between them, and also many marriages between cousins, and I do not deny that this is also the case here

Haim Wartski, HaCohen

I think that The Prophet R' Aryeh Zachariah of Kracow Lieberman and Rabbi Zecharya Mendel Kalusziner/Klausner, of Krakow are the same person.

Rabbi Arye-Leib Fishles Kalusner/Kloisner, [der Hoicher of Cracow] is the son.

Haim Wartski, HaCohen, do you know if any of their descendants were in Plunge (פלונגיאן), Lithuania, or nearby? This is where Rabbi Dov Ber Lipkin and his family -- possible descendants of The Prophet R' Aryeh Zachariah of Kracow Lieberman --were.

Private User

Rabbi Zecharya Mendel Kalusziner/Klausner, of Krakow
Immigrated to Israel and was buried in Jerusalem. Do you know where

The Prophet R' Aryeh Zachariah of Kracow Lieberman

he buried?

Private User

You have opened the profile of

The Prophet R' Aryeh Zachariah of Kracow Lieberman

Do you have information that can help know if
The Prophet R' Aryeh Zachariah of Kracow Lieberman
and
Rabbi Zecharya Mendel Kalusziner/Klausner, of Krakow
Is this the same person? And if so, where does the surname Lieberman come from? The family name was Klausner