Dymitr Sr., prince of Drutsk - complex conflict

Started by Livio Scremin on Tuesday, April 12, 2022
Problem with this page?

Participants:

Profiles Mentioned:

Showing 1-30 of 37 posts

the right father of MP total locked Dymitr "the Elder", prince of Drutsk it's without doubts Algirdas, Grand Duke of Lithuania [MP total locked] "but"...

.."but" examining the wrong father's tree (Olgierd – Algirdas, King of Lithuania 1316 – 1344)
-there is the probable DUP BRO Korybut - Kaributas (with descent)
-& the probable DUP cousin prince Dymitry Semionovich Drutsky (with descent)

here now, I'm really far from home..(I'm here detecting them following a usual new just solved duplication conflict over the Byzantine emperors .. my usefulness ends here just only whit this purely "technical report" sorry:)

(C)s Sharon Doubell & Private User I'm sure you know better than me who to entrust it to..
..I also saw USER Private User two years ago trying to take care of the knot *
https://www.geni.com/discussions/215068?msg=1399397

There were two parallel branches of King Algirdas of Lithuania. Now it seems like one branch is part of an isolated tree. Maybe Private User who curates the MP'ed profile may help resolve duplicate conflicts?

Dymitr Sr., prince of Drutsk is my 7th cousin 18 times removed.

& PS ..PLZ perform this very old easy* merge: -https://www.geni.com/merge/compare/6000000003524503476

[I think I've already reported it a couple of times privately & *https://www.geni.com/discussions/158450?msg=1554823 :]

Dymitr Sr., prince of Drutsk is my 7th cousin 15 times removed.
Algirdas, Grand Duke of Lithuania is my first cousin 20 times removed.
Prince Dimitri Drutski is my 8th cousin 15 times removed.
Dymitr Sr., prince of Drutsk is my 8th cousin 15 times removed.
Vasilijus Druckis is my 7th cousin 16 times removed.

GDL Algirdas had 12 sons. Dymitri Sr. is not listed in the oldest Gediminids dynasty genealogy source. Follow this link:

http://digi.vatlib.it/
Manuscript - Cappon.164
Tavola genealogica dei granduchi di Lituania dall'anno 1316 all'anno 1430 e dei Re di Polonia dall'anno 1386 all'anno 1572.
Subject: Polonia
Lituania (granducato) - Granduchi

Gediminids genealogy is in big part based on legends, speculations, and historical works, written several centuries after the events described.

In cases, where the relationship is alleged, where sources provide conflicting information, I add three question marks "???". I don't want to rush and remove these profiles, as it will cause disagreements and unnecessary conflicts.

I added an excerpt from the above-mentioned source, dated 1576. This is Grand Duke of Lithuania Algirdas and the names of all 12 of his sons:

https://www.geni.com/photo/view/6000000003521266933?album_type=photos_of_me&photo_id=6000000184576053876

Private User are you good with this, or can I do anything to help?

Sharon Doubell if you can, please monitor the Gediminids dynasty with me. There have been copies of the tree created, then merged. these copies may contain useful information though. I'm reviewing the information. It's too much work. This tree is a mess now.

see if wiki DE of Algirdas, Grand Duke of Lithuania
can help you, to clarify what they were trying to doing/duplicate
(in addition to 12 + 1 sons, also lists 10 daughters)

*https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algirdas#Nachkommen [obviously secondary sources cited]

The best I can do in an area I know not at all, is to set up a template where we can link profiles and add sources. https://www.geni.com/projects/GRAND-DUKES-of-LITHUANIA-1315-1432/4486033 - I can definitely help you watch that, and perhaps it will serve to attract other knowledgeable Lithuanian Curators and users.

(or yes this helps a lot:)
-https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/LITHUANIA.htm#Algirdasdied1377B
ALGIRDAS [Olgierd], son of GEDIMINAS Grand Duke of Lithuania & [his second wife Olga Vsevolodovna of Smolensk] ([1296]-end May 1377). ... ... ...

m firstly (1318) [MARIA] Iaroslavna of Vitebsk, ... (8 cildren)
m secondly ([1350]) IULIANA Aleksandrovna of Tver, ... ... (12 cildren)

Okay
Are there more than these 14 children on Geni?

GEDIMINAS [Gedymin], son of PUKUVERAS Grand Duke of Lithuania & his wife --- ([1260]-killed in battle [late 1341/early 1342]).
[m firstly WIDA, daughter of WIDMUND.]
[m secondly OLGA Vsevolodovna, daughter of VSEVOLOD of Smolensk.]
[m thirdly IEVNA [Eva] Ivanovna, daughter of IVAN Vsevolodich Prince of Polotzk (-[1345]). Gediminas & his [---] wife had [fourteen] children:
1. MANVIDAS [Montovid] (-[1342]).
2. NARIMANTAS [Narimont] (-killed in battle Strèva 2 Feb 1348) baptised GLEB
3. [daughter x (<1319) DAVID Starost at Grodno, son of [DAUMANTAS Prince of Nalšia] (-killed 1326).
4. ALGIRDAS [Olgierd] (-end May 1377).
5. JAUNUTIS [Evnuty] (-1366) baptised IOANN [Ivan]
6. KESTUTIS [Kiejstut] (-murdered 15 Aug 1382) baptised ALEKSANDER.
7. KARIJOTAS [Koriat] (-after 1358) baptised MIKHAEL.
8. LIUBARTAS [Lubart] (-1384) baptised DMITRY x ([1320]%29 EUFEMIA [Offa] Vladimirovna, d/o VLADIMIR Mstislavich Prince of Volhynia (-1349) xx (> 1349) OLGA Konstantinovna, d/o KONSTANTIN III Vassilievich Prince of Rostov & Maria Ivanovna of Moscow.
9. MARIA ([1305]-1348%29 x (1320) DMITRY Mikhailovich "Groznye Otchi/Menacing Eyes" Prince of Tver, s/o MIKHAIL Iaroslavich Grand Prince of Vladimir & Anna Dmitrievna of Rostov (15 Oct 1299-executed [Sarai] 15 Sep 1325).
10. DANNILA ([1306]-1364%29 baptised ELŻBIETA x (< 6 Dec 1320, maybe 1316]) WACŁAW Prince of Plock, s/o BOLESŁAW II Prince of Mazovia [Piast] & his second wife Kunigunde of Bohemia ([1293]-23 May 1336).
11. ALDONA ([1309/10]-26 May 1339) baptised ANNA x (16 Oct 1325) as his first wife, KAZIMIERZ Prince of Poland, s/o WŁADYSŁAW I "Łokietek/the Short" King of Poland & Jadwiga of Poland (30 Apr 1310-Krakow 5 Nov 1370, bur Krakow Cathedral).
12. GAUDEMUNDA ([1316]-murdered near Zawichost 5 Feb 1342) baptised EUFEMIA. She was drowned under the ice in River Vistula (betrothed 1324, Plock Cathedral 1331) BOLESŁAW JERZY Prince of Galich and Vladimir in Volynia, s/o TROJDEN I Prince of Czersk [Piast] & Maria Iurievna of Galich (< 1313-murdered 7 Apr 1340).
13. AIGUSTA (-11 Mar 1345) baptised ANASTASIA x (1333) SEMËN Ivanovich of Vladimir, son of IVAN I Daniilovich "Kalita/Moneybags" Grand Prince of Vladimir & Elena (1316-21 Apr 1353)
14. daughter x ANDREI Mstislavich of Kozelsk, son of MSTISLAV Mikhailovich of Karachev (-1339).

ALGIRDAS [Olgierd], s/o GEDIMINAS Grand Duke of Lithuania & Olga Vsevolodovna of Smolensk] ([1296]-end May 1377). Baptised ALEKSANDER.
x (1318) [MARIA] Iaroslavna of Vitebsk, d/o IAROSLAV Vasilievich Prince of Vitebsk (-1346).

1. ANDREI ([1319]-killed in battle 12 Aug 1399) baptised ANDREI Prince of Pskov. Prince of Polotsk.
2. KONSTANTIN (-[1386/30 Oct 1393]). Prince of Czartorysk.
3. OLEŁKO WŁODZIMIERZ (-1398). Prince of Kiev
4. FEODOR (-before 1400). Prince of Ratno [Ratnie].
5. KORIBUTAS [Korybut] ([1331]->1404). Prince of Novgorod Severskiy baptised DMITRY
6. FEODORA x (>1376) SVIATOSLAV Titovich Prince of Karachev, s/o TIT Mstislavich Prince of Karachev
7. daughter x IVAN Iurievich Prince of Novosilsk and Odoievsk s/o IURII Romanovich Prince of Novosilsk (->1371).
8. MARIA [Agrafena] (-1393) x (1354) BORIS Konstantinovich Prince of Gorodeno, s/o KONSTANTIN Vasilievich Grand Prince of Suzdal and Nizhni-Novgorod & Ielena --- (<1340-12 May 1394). Grand Prince of Suzdal and Nizhni-Novgorod.

xx ([1350]%29 IULIANA Aleksandrovna of Tver, d/o ALEXANDER I Mikhailovich Prince of Tver, ex-Grand Prince of Vladimir & Anastasia [Iurievna of Galich] ([1325]-1392).

9. KENNA ([1350]-27 Apr 1368) baptised as JOHANNA x (1360) KASIMIR von Pommern, s/o BOGISLAW V Duke of Pomerania in Hinterpommern Elźbieta of Poland ([1351]-2 Jan 1377).
10. JOGAILA [Jagiello] ([1351]-1 Jun 1434). Grand Prince of Lithuania 1382/3-1386 and 1392/1401. He succeeded as WŁADISŁAW II King of Poland 1386-1434
11. SKIRGAILA [Skirgajllo] (-11 Jan 1397). Prince of Kiev 1395. Prince of Lithuania 1386-1392.
12. LENGVENIS [Lingweni] ([1355]-after 19 Jun 1431). Prince of Mstislavsk. baptised SZYMON in 1386. x (14 Jun 1394) MARIA Dmitrievna of Moscow, d/o DMITRY Ivanovich "Donskoy" Grand Prince of Vladimir, Prince of Moscow & Ievdokia Dmitrievna of Suzdal (-1399) xx (winter [1406/07]) NN, from Moscow.
13. KORIGAILA [Korigajllo] (-killed in battle Vilna 28 Oct 1392) baptised KAZIMIERZ in 1386.
14. WIGAND [Wigunt] (-28 Jun 1392). Prince of Kirnovo. baptised ALEKSANDER x (< 25 Jan 1390) HEDWIG von Oppeln, d/o WLADISLAW Duke of Oppeln, Palatine of Hungary [Piast] & Euphemia of Mazovia [Piast] ([1376/78]->13 May 1390).
15. ŠVITRIGAILA [Svidrigailo] (-10 Feb 1452). baptised BOLESŁAW. Prince of Polock 1400/02. After 1406, Prince of Vladimir-Volhynsk Perejeslavl Volokolamsk. Prince of Chermigov 1419/30. He succeeded in 1430 as ŠVITRIGAILA Grand Duke of Lithuania, until 1432. x ([1430/33]%29 ANNA Ivanovna of Tver, d/o IVAN Ivanovich Prince of Tver (-[1471/28 Sep 1484]). adopted the name SOFIA
16. ELENA (-15 Sep 1438). She became a nun as IEPRAKSIA x (Winter [1371/72]) VLADIMIR Andreievich “Khrobry/the Brave” Prince of Sierpukhov and Bobrovsk, s/o ANDREI Ivanovich of Moscow, Prince of Sierpukhov and Bobrovsk & Maria Konstantinovna of Rostov-Borisoglebsk (15 Jul 1353-4 or 14 May 1410).
17. MARIA x (1379) VAIDILA [Wojdylo] Starost of Lidzki (-1382) xx DAVID Dmitrievich Prince of Gorodeno [Gorodetsk].
18. WILHEIDA KATARZYNA (-> 4 Apr 1422) x (1388) JOHANN von Mecklenburg-Stargard, s/o JOHANN I Herzog von Mecklenburg-Stargard & Agnes von Lindau-Ruppin (-[6 Jul/9 Oct] 1416, bur Sternberg).
19. ALEKSANDRA (-19 Jun 1434) x ([1387]%29 SIEMOWIT IV Prince of Plock and Kujavia, s/o SIEMOWIT III "Starszy" Prince of Mazovia & Euphemia von Troppau [P%C5%99emyslid] (before 1352-5 Dec 1425).
20. JADWIGA (-> 13 May 1400) x (1394) HANUŠ III Duke of Auschwitz [O%C5%9Bwi%C4%99cim], s/o HANUŠ II Duke of Auschwitz [Piast] & Hedwig von Brieg [Piast] ([1366/76]-1405, > 19 Aug).

Looks like it will need ultimately to be a subproject of https://www.geni.com/projects/Grand-Dukes-of-Lithuania/3484 - or copied into it, but I'm suggesting we keep it as a temporay template first.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_of_Bryansk only cites sources from the 20th century. His About says that he isn't listed on the oldest sources in the Vatican. I'm not really qualified to make a juddgement call, but without more specific sources from the time, I can't really see what legitimately places him as ALGIRDAS' son. I'd cut that relationship if it were me.

therefore, so far Dymitr "the Elder", prince of Drutsk
is son of Algirdas, Grand Duke of Lithuania from all all all *multilingual wikis by reference:
'' [1] Matulevičius, Algirdas (2004). "Dmitrijus Algirdaitis". In Spečiūnas, Vytautas (ed.). Lietuvos valdovai (XIII-XVIII a.): enciklopedinis žinynas (in Lithuanian). Vilnius: Mokslo ir enciklopedijų leidybos institutas. p. 53. ISBN 5-420-01535-8. ''
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_of_Bryansk

Can you figure out what the 2004 encyclopaedias are using as sources?

Pagan sons were baptized and received additional Christian names, so as a result, they have two names. Two Algirdas' sons (Boris and Andrey) were named with Christian names at birth, so they have no second name. So, out of the listed 16 sons, there is one alleged, and 3 with Christian names should be merged with 3 pagan name sons. We should have 12 sons in total. Only we (and the history) don't know which one is which. I myself do research and write to Wikipedia. German or French Wikipedia will not help, as it is full of interpretations, based on some opinions, ignoring other opinions... We need more original historical sources to make decisions like that. So, I decided to leave 15 or 16 sons, until more information is available.

Algirdas' sons:

  • Boris (has only a Christian name)
  • Andrei (has only a Christian name)
  • Demetrius I Starszy - alleged, most likely he was a son of Vasili of Drutsk
  • Konstantin - probably the Christian name of one below listed sons with a pagan name
  • Vladimir - probably the Christian name of one below listed sons with a pagan name
  • Fiodor - probably the Christian name of one below listed sons with a pagan name

three of these four alleged sons might be Christian names for Butskus, Narimantas, and Lubartus.

  • Lubartus
  • Narimantas
  • Butkus / Buckus
  • Jogaila - Vladislaus
  • Skirgaila - Jan Casimir
  • Korybut - Dymitr
  • Lengvenis - Simeon
  • Karigaila - Vasili Casimir
  • Vygantas - Alexander or Andrey (?)
  • Švitrigaila - Boleslaus

Private User Cawley seems to think "Vladimir - probably the Christian name of one below listed sons with a pagan name" was OLEŁKO WŁODZIMIERZ (-1398). cf https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/LITHUANIA.htm#Gediminasdied1341B

What Primary sourcesare we using to establish Boris as a son?

Cawley has a Boris son-in-law: MARIA [Agrafena] (-1393). m (1354) BORIS Konstantinovich Prince of Gorodeno, son of KONSTANTIN Vasilievich Grand Prince of Suzdal and Nizhni-Novgorod & his second wife Ielena --- (before 1340-12 May 1394). He succeeded his brother in 1383 as Grand Prince of Suzdal and Nizhni-Novgorod. https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/LITHUANIA.htm#Gediminasdied1341B

PS: It's not that Cawley is the be-all & end all: just that his primary sources are readily available on the net - so they make a good starting point to add to.

PS - Can you add the above to the project so I can be sure to be able to follow it?

Should any be removed altogether?

Olelko - that's a diminutive name for Aleksander. Olelko Vladimirovich was a son of Vladimir and grandson of Algirdas.

Vladimir - is a Christian name, after a Russian Orthodox saint, who lived in the 10th century.

Vladimir Olgerdovich (Vladimir son of Algirdas - in Slavic style, probably used in Russian sources) must have a pagan name as well, probably one of these: Butskus, or Narimantas, or Lubartas. Latin sources might use a pagan name, or double name pagan+christian. Unfortunately, we don't have those sources found yet. But the Vatican now opened its library, so maybe there will be more information found soon? I hope, I'm not the only one looking.

Some sons of Algirdas became politically active before they were baptized, so their pagan names are known, some - after they adopted Christian names, then they are mentioned in sources with their Christian names. Some are known with both names Pagan+Christian.

Foreign authors use translations of sources that are available to them, and not necessarily everything that's written about the person or the event. Historians make conclusions often not knowing the languages in which original chronicles were written, so they use translations or speculations of previous historians, depending what is available. Gediminid dynasty is surrounded by legends. Most original written sources are from enemy chronicles, who fought Lithuania, so facts are thickened with slander. Then there are centuries of various historical interpretations and speculations, many authors did not know all: Latin, German, old Turkish, Russian, Ruthenian, old Slavic, Ukrainian, Polish, and Lithuanian languages - this is how many languages a person needs to know to be able to read all original sources and understand names and geographic locations mentioned in them. Even reading just one text - names, geographical places, and events, described in the same language are confusing, as they are spelled using a different spelling for one and the same, so it might seem, that another person is mentioned where there is only one. Plus Dukes liked to "adopt" their most faithful vassals and allies, calling them "son" or "brother", so this adds to the confusion...

And now we have a recent "historical content". There are Russian and Belorusian historians, who use history as a political tool in order to wipe out other nations and rewrite their history. This has been done during USSR rule, and now there is a renewal in these activities. It requires knowledge and experience to recognize these political-agenda-saturated sources, some are very sophisticated, signed by professors, and published in hardcover books. And there is an ocean of articles that use this historical smear propaganda as their base for information. And of course, there are some very professional and respectful history researchers in Russia, who are now not popular and whose career is limited due to their unpopular views. Wikipedia is based on a mix of both, so it can't be 100% reliable.

Fortunately, we have DNA. I hope someone will fund research for the Gediminid dynasty's old burials and living descendants, who claim their lineage origins from the Gediminid dynasty. Plus many archives are open to the public, and many ancient scripts are available to read on the internet. It only requires time and knowledge of languages.

Do not worry. I will take my time and find the solution for the Gediminid family tree on GENI. Thanks for all the help and attention to this issue.

I'm curating and locking relationships as I go, so that you don't have the concern of duplicate trees suddenly being merged in and messing your work midway, but please re-curate and update everywhere this is useful - it's not my area, and I have no investment here - I'm just trying to make sure I'm stabilising it for you to do the needed work. Take over as you go :-)

I must admit, I would never have said OLEŁKO was a Christian name!

Your background above is fascinating. I'm also really interested in the contemporary political motivations point. Of course this must be a big factor that will make Wikipedia especially fraught.

Regarding the Vatican sources - and you being the only one looking - I'm not seeing any Lithuanian curators on Geni commenting on any of these profiles; and Livio advertised the issue with this profile a number of times over quite a few weeks without a response - so you almost certainly are our only hope for this on Geni.

Charles Cawley's Medieval Lands site, is very worthwhile updating as you find obvious translation or research errors / updates in it. He is very approachable via email, and really wants to get it accurate to the primary sources. Because it's so completely freely accessible across the net, it seems to me to be an invaluable historical resource to help to update wherever you can.

Thanks Sharon! You are a great help! I will check each profile (time allowing) in the Gediminid dynasty and will re-curate them as I go.

All Lithuanian GENi Curators have full-time jobs, some have young families. This work requires hours and hours, so I can't blame them.

Oh, me neither. Just letting you guys know why I jumped in - I'm not being territorial; just Livio was sounding like he was getting desperate :-)

Showing 1-30 of 37 posts

Create a free account or login to participate in this discussion