Rbzn. (1st wife) Glika Morgenstern (Rais/Naj), of Kotzk - The brothers of Glika Morgensztern

As you may recall, we discussed this issue with Yigal about a year and a half ago.

According to Naftali Walkstein, Glikel (my great-grandmother 4) had only one sister and she had no brothers.

In the information on Glickel's profile, I have attached the relevant section written by Naftali Walkstein regarding this issue

Dear Haim, I know your opinion about this issue. For me the only reliable source is the civil records. I would like to hear another profile managers. If you want to beleive only to someone’s books is your free choice. But you can not deny the historical documents 200 years old. If you are unable to read and understand them it isn’t the reason the information mentioned in these documents doesn’t exist.
Your arguments are not serious because partially you agree with the death record of Eyzyk using the information about his death date that is totally okay for you. But his sons that signed this paper and PRESENTED in the same paper as HIS SONS you don’t accept because some not ver accurate author didn’t mentioned them in his book.
Let’s wait for another members opinion. I believe that you aren’t going to usurp the right of another members to redact and add found relatives to the trees. Especially when it’s about the people deceased two centuries ago?
By the way you are satisfied enough with my findings of another Menachem Mendel’s family members. You even added them to Kocker rabbi project. So it means you accept my research results without any doubt? Why? Why didn’t you check my findings with your dear Naftali Walkstein? May be I just made another mistake? It’s not fair, don’t you think so?

I did this because I believed what you said, until Naftali Walkstein told me you were wrong

In the information I checked, it became clear to me that there were two Reis families living in Tomaszów, and that there was no known family connection between them.
...
Just because his name is Itzik Reyes, there is no proof that he is my great-grandfather, in addition, as far as I know he did not remarry after the death of his wife.
Glickel is the one who took care of his tombstone, if she had siblings as you claim, they would do it

And one last thing, Rabbi Naftali Wakstein is today considered the number one expert in the world for rabbinical families and dynasties ... It is clear that I will clarify every claim regarding my family with him

Haim, I read the books of Tomaszow so many times that I know all the families in this town by heart: Catholic and Jewish records too. There wasn’t two different families Rajs in 1828 in Tomaszow. It’s ridiculous what you say, sorry. They are all relatives and I proved this by documents. But you don’t care, do you? You couldn’t “check” anything because you can not read records. With all my respect. I already built the giant Rajs[feld] tree. With all their side relatives included. It’s no sense to argue because you don’t have the detailed information but I have.

And one last thing: you (not me!) are satisfied enough with the 5th of September as the death date of your ancestor Eyzyk Rajs? Why? Delete it! Because it’s mentioned in the very same paper you deny the content.: “SIGNED BY HIS SONS”

Since I have no proof that this is indeed Glickel's father, I will ask a curator to delete the date

When you show me Glickel's birth / marriage / death certificate it says that her father is the same Itzik Reiss you are referring to, then and only thenI believe that Wakstein is wrong and you are right, and I will apologize to you,
but so far you have not proved anything to me, beyond the fact He has two sons ... Why are the girls not mentioned in the certificate?

Yigal Burstein

יגאל היקר,בבקשה תמחוק את תאריך הלידה והמוות של אביה של גליקל,הרבנית מקוצק,זהו פרופילו:

Rabbi Yitzhak (Icek) Rajs, of Tomashov

תודה רבה
חיים

@Ygal Burstein
Dear Ygal, I beleive you are going to ask from profile managers to provide the information supporting their steps when we speak about the Master Profile.
And not taken from any books that actually (and logically) have to be based only on real documents/facts.

As the document from which the death date of Glika’s father (the 5th September 1828) taken from the contested case it’s better to delete it.

According to Tomaszow Lubelski books 1810-1900 not another R’ Eyzyk (Icek/Ejzyk) Rajs or Ytzek Rajsfeld died in this town that could fit Glika’s as her father. Only this that I mentioned above. It’s up to you to decide.

Kind regards,
Bella Marianchik

I have written the Book Ahavas Dovid on Reb Dovid of Kotzk and have done way more research on our family than any one has even, and I do agree that if they are listed on a record that it would be accurate (assuming we can prove this is this R Eizeks death record).
It also makes sense that he passed away in about that time, as the sefer "the kotzker rebber) I believe writes that The Kotzker Rebbe tolk his son Reb Dovid to Tomoszow to see his mothers father and get a blessing before his wedding (end of 1827) and that Reb Dovid of Kotzk would often repeat the last words his grandfather had told him "Treat others well, and they will do the same to you"...
Just because "we don't know" that there were sons, does not mean that there weren't any... It's just that they are not mentioned in any of the seforin or books... possible they did not keep close to the Kotzker Rebber and Chasidus etc

Private User

You are right assuming that this is the same Rabbi Yitzchak Reiz and not another person ... but
:
1: In no source is it written that Glikel had brothers (except for her sister who married Rabbi Nay)
2: In all the sources it is written that Glickel is the one who take care of her father's tombstone, if she has brothers, why did they not deal with it
?
3

: I have never read in any source that Glickel's father remarried after his wife's death
4: And most importantly: Naftali Wakstein (who you also know well), strongly claims that Rabbi Yitzchak Reiz (Glickel's father) had no sons, only two daughters

By the way, I'm waiting for a copy of the book you promised me.

Private User

Baruch,

I now spoke with Naftali Wakstein on the phone, he explained to me that the information that Glikel had no brothers at all but one sister, he received from direct descendants of The Kozker Rebbe, and if they claimed so, then the information is certain

Dear @Ester Gutter, @ Ygal Burstein
People began to built family trees only ~15 years ago. At that time no one had the access to the scanned records online because they weren’t digitalised. Now when we all have totally free access to the original books’ scans from the State Archive of Poland and can read by our own eyes all the available documents it’s just not too intelligent way of research to have an argument “the relatives of Kocker Rebe told me”…The relatives that could speak and share things could never know about another family members and the ancestors that lived 200 years ago. It’s ridiculous to take such information as basis of the scientific genealogy. Sometimes people don’t know even what was their grandparents name.

1) all the books of Tomaszow Lubelski civil records survived without any exception. The entire collection is available online for free

2) if the person who we are talking about is well Eyzyk Rajs (Rajsfeld ) - the record I am talking about is the ONLY ONE that exists in Tomaszow in all existing books in the State Archive of Poland.

3) if Naftali Wakstein claims that R’ Rajs died in Tomaszow Lubelski and not anywhere else later than 1810 it is possible and very easy to find his death certificate and it is what I’ve done.

4) any Jew lived and died in Tomaszow is registered in the books. 1810-1825 in Catholic Archive and from 1826 - in separate Jewish Archive

5) neither in Catholic nor in Jewish books there weren’t any other Eyzyk/ Icek / Ayzyk or whatever Rajs/Rajsfeld in this town. Only ONE that is mentioned as died on the 5th of September 1828.
I personally passed through all the books - each death record - one by one 1810- 1900. If you don’t beleive me you can do it yourself.

This is the record’s scan where you can easily see that his death was reported by his two sons
https://szukajwarchiwach.pl/35/1778/0/2.1/7/skan/save/RfhIJFk6RG1Lr...

This is the translation:

Took place in the town of Tomaszow on the 7th of September 1828, at 10 a.m. Religious Jews Herszko Rajsfeld the merchant making business at the Depot House, 56 y.o. and Nachman Rajsfeld the merchant of wine, 42 y.o. - both the residents of Tomaszow announced that on the 5th of this month the same year at 11 a.m. died Ejzyk Rajsfeld living from the help of his children, 94 y.o., living here in Tomaszow, the son of Szyia and Glikla - the spouses lived ones in Tomaszow and not alive anymore - left after him widowed wife Rayca from Zylberberg [house]. Witnessing the death of Eyzyk Rajsfeld this Act read to and by the announcing sons of the deceased and signed by them. Signatures: the clerk of civil records/.../ Herzka Rajsfld, Nachman Rajsfeld

6) in the death record of Nachman Rajsfeld and Hersz Rajsfeld their parents mentioned as Eyzyk and Gitla Rajs. Nachman’s death record even mentions his both variants of surname - Rajs and Rajsfeld
Here it is: (№43)
https://photos.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/fc59e1bcac525bb73a7f29782afc...

7) Honestly I do not understand why to beleive only one person (that cold might have a mistake due to the luck of real information - just being a human even being a Rabbi) and not to beleive to the official documents ???

8) why to accept the facts only partially ( as it happens in case of Udla Naj that I also found the evidences about her existence and It was very well admitted ! ) an not to beleive the official death registration of her father?

My opinion - completing family trees using « broken phone » instead of referring to the original records it’s fiction and not genealogy.

Bella Marianchik

Honestly, who are you and why do you insist on engaging with my family, and what is your real intention, has disappeared from my understanding ... You have nothing to do with the Morgenstern family !!!!

And most importantly: according to Naftali Wakstein, he has in his hands the family trees written by the sons of Rabbi David Morgenstern (the second admur of kozk, and my g.grandfather 3), and they explicitly state that Rabbi Yitzchak Reiz (Glickel's father) had no sons at all, only two daughters.

Surely they who lived then know better than you

And I repeat again: in Tomshov there were two Reiz families living at that time, as far as is known there was no family connection between themSo far, you have not proved at all that Itzik Reiz, who constantly insists that he was the father of the Rebbetzin of Kotzk, is really her father

You can repeat your claims 10 more times, until you bring a birth / marriage / death certificate of Glickel that verifies your statements, you have no proof of the truth of your statements,

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski

This internet site isn’t made only for relatives. So, I’m surprised this fact ignored by you. Many members built trees in collaboration together even of very distant people. When it is about famous personalities like the most prominent ones. I help people to find the records in Achive and build their trees with them just for their pleasure and from simple reason to reveal and to restore lost Jewish world.
By the way I’m related to Naj family and this branch of Rajs is linked to mine. So you can not contest my right to make a research. You also have very far relationship to Eyzyk Rajs and it’s very strange that you also don’t have any proofs (against mine or more reliable than mine) but you want the others to think you are right 100%.

It wasn’t me that decided that Eyzyk Rajs lived and died in Tomaszow. His presumed daughter Udla lived, married and died there. There isn’t any other Eyzyk Rajs in Tomaszow. These are facts nobody could deny. It’s my question and I have right to ask about.

I began this discussion to listen the others’ opinions and thoughts. Your point of view is clear and there isn’t a need to be rude. It’s just a discussion. Nobody is going to take your ancestors from you. Please calm down and be just specific and stick to the subject without touching me personally. If you prefer nobody to take part in Rajs/Morgensztern tree make your own one and put it on private mode preventing the others from seeing it. This option well exist here.

Bella Marianchik

Let's be precise: I opened profiles for the Nai family about a year and a half ago, then you opened parallel profiles, merged them with the profiles I opened, cut them from my family tree, and connected them to you while turning them into confidential profiles
.
Second, to the best of my knowledge, there is no blood relationship between you and the Nai family (in the branch of Glickel's sister), but only an indirect relationship, if any.
You demand to change things that hurt the truths of my family tree, of which I am as a descendant of
The Kozker Rebbe
Ensures that the information is correct, accurate, and not according to any person's wishes.

There is no blood relationship between you and me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if you are interested, set up the parallel and imaginary tree And do not damage Geni's general and true tree
...
And until you bring clear evidence (and you do not have one) stop making false claims.

And one last thing: do not give me advice on how to behave, you have no right to do so.

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski

Just stop attacking me! I don’t need you blood And neither your family. Nor the profiles you are creating. I’m intelligent enough to do it without any assistance. I built my tree and also many others in collaboration with my friends. All my Naj profiles never were created with intention to join your relatives. They were never created by you but by myself or by my partners in genealogy research. I kindly asked Ygal to disconnect my tree from yours because of your inappropriate comments and aggressive tone. Don’t think I need Kozker Rebbe for myself. For me he is just a deceased Jew. My personal family history is much better and older.

The fact we aren’t blood relatives does not give you right to blame me for false facts.
Don’t forget you too haven’t any proof Eyzyk Rajs from the record I provided above wasn’t Glika’s father!
I promise you that if I find anything about your family I would never share it with you: ask Naftali to search for you. I prefer to work with reasonable people. Dozens of evidences I already found were accepted with the most welcoming reaction and grateful feedback from everyone I collaborate with.
So stop making me a criminal record. You are not alone here and we have equal rights to build any trees we want!
Please do me a favour and don’t respond here to my comments. I prefer to discuss the announced topic and not to read your exclamation points. My private tree is not your business. Hopefully Ygal helped me to disconnect it from yours.

For all managers of Glika's profile: there are no evidence she died in Warka (or Kock) in the books of these towns (all existing death records 1800-1840 checked by myself).

Bella

כמה שטיות ודברי הבל אפשר עוד לכתוב על קאצק והמשפחה, לא מספיק כל השקרים ,סילופים שכתבו המשכילים ימח שמם וזכרם.

בנוסח המצבה של הרבנית גליקל כתוב בפרוש.

מתה בארץלא לא פה ווארקי ה' מנחם אב תקצ"ז לפ"ק תנצב"ה.

Bella Marianchik

You hurt the memory of my holy ancestors, and hurt my feelings!!!!!!

I do not know who you are and why you do it, but you are trying to rewrite history and change it according to your wishes

I demand you to stop doing this immediately
!!!!!!
You are taking advantage of the fact that you are not a paid subscriber, so it is impossible to know your identity

You're obsessed with my family - stop it
and one last thing:
Rebbetzin Glickel's profile has the wording of her tombstone, and it is explicitly written that she died in Warka

Rbzn. (1st wife) Glika Morgenstern, of Kotzk

שמחה מורגנשטרן

תודה על תגובתך המפורטת. האם תוכל לכתוב בלועזית את שם המקום בו בדיוק מתה גליקה?

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski

Stop chasing me! Leave me alone please! Your hysterical comments have nothing to do with genealogy and the discussion of archival documents. The State Archive of Poland is therefore freely available, because it belongs to all mankind, and not your personal property. No one insulted your family. But you offend others for the umpteenth time. If you don't stop, I'll ask to the curators of the site for help.

Bella Marianchik

I will stop when you stop trying and rewrite my family history, and stop being obsessed with my family ...

You can turn to the curators, feel free ... I'm not a kid being threatened

You may not feel, but you make fun of your inventions, leave your family and keep doing your things, and I promise you will not hear from me, I have no desire or passion for any connection with you

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski

Since I asked Ygal do disconnect my tree from the MP of R’Icek Rajs you have the relationship to you have no right to demand anything from me. My totally legitimate interest in remoted family members of myself ( R’ Morgansztern is well related to my another blood relatives through Biala Podlaska’s Mozes and Goldberg branches as well!) is not your business. Do you like it or not. I am a free member of Geni and use my rights according to this platform policies: to built any tree I want, to open any discussion I want, to have fun of my inventions or not.
I do my research the way I consider as scrupulously accurate. I don’t push anyone to accept my opinion. Especially when someone is aggressive and too emotional as yourself and isn’t ready to open discussion using something else but not real facts as the contre-arguments. Your offence doesn’t touch me at all: there are too many rude people. Even among the most prominent Rabbi’s descendants.

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski

Just for you information. Please read attentively!

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