Yolande - Who is Yolanda de Gavre

Hi David,

I didn’t yet fully analyse your text but it seems to confirm what I was thinking for a certain time now: that Gavere and Chièvres are in fact the same word, the same etymology, one in Dutch and the other in Picardian, meaning ‘ the land alongside of a river. Gaver-Scheldt and Chièvres-Dender, where the two branches of the river Dender united.

Perhaps it could be possible to read the data that we already have with this knowledge, who knows what would come out.

I am going to read this very thouroughly once again, thanks for the text!

KR, CGV

Hi Carl,
I’ve recently seen a new comment not seen before that may be part of this equation. An uncorroborated source says that Raase III (who I haven’t got to yet) was a cousin of the famous Eve de Chievers whom he married as her 2nd husband. Also, this marriage lasted only a short time because he was killed at Roucourt!, years earlier than his son and grandson who both perished in different battles at Roucourt in 1148 and 1150. Roucourt is becoming more and more important to this time period.

I must correct myself, it was the first husband of Eve de Chievers, “ Gilles de Chin, defeated the dragon in Wasmes and was killed during the siege of Roucourt in 1137”

Carl Gustav Verbraeken
Hi Carl,
This website has a different take on the entomology of the word Chièvres for your consideration.

http://home.scarlet.be/~ab123800/CHIEVRES.html

But an important take away for me is the statement regarding the effort that Boudouin IV Count of Hainaut made in insuring the third marriage of Eve de Chièvres to a descendant of her parents from Hainaut in order to keep the lordship of Chièvres in Hainaut and not letting it become a lordship of Thierry Count of Flanders.

It would seem that this action set the stage for the later deaths of Raase IV and his son Rasse V at Roucourt by putting them in a position of being vassel to two counts.

Well, well.. I see :-)

I'm not seeing any sources suggesting that the wife of Wédric II le Barbu d'Avesnes, seigneur d'Avesnes was named Yolanda at all.

The French Wikipedia article which shows no primary sources (and is actually flagged as having no sources never mentions a Yolanda at all, but marries Wedric to Rasse de Chièvre.

I'm battling to see the justification for inserting her into the tree (where she becomes my direct gr grandmother) at all.I'd suggest attaching her to the project https://www.geni.com/projects/HEREN-van-GAVRE-GAVERE/4486921, and noting her as an issue for further research, then removing her from the tree pending primary sources.

Eve dit “Damison” van Chièvres, héritière de Chièvre, dame du Sart - whose 2nd husband is Rasse III (1112) “dite Bertrand“ van Gavere, Lord of Chièvres, count of Everghem, baron of Flanders -
has a daughter, Yolande de Rumigny-Florennes by her 3rd husband,Nicolas III de Rumigny, Seigneur de Rumigny et Florennes https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NAMUR.htm#NicolasIIIRumignydiedbef...

5. YOLANDE de Rumigny (-before 1248). The Chronicon Hanoniense names "Iulianum…Raynaldo de Roseto maritatem de quo…Rogerum et Clementiam [uxor] Gerardo de Haslut et Yolandem [uxor] Henrici de Hirge et advocato Hasbaniensi et apud Winti in Flandria" as daughters of "Nicholaus qui et Ruminium et Florinas castra possedit" & his wife[599]. "Gotbertus vir nobilis de Orbais" founded the church of Sainte-Catherine de Milen, with the consent of "Jolenda domina de Yrgis, cuius filiam in uxorem habui", to found anniversaries for "meum…sed et uxoris meæ Evæ, et fratris sui Ægidii, Jolandæ etiam de Yrges…sed et domini Hugonis de Florinis", by charter dated 1219[600]. m HENRI Seigneur de Hierges, son of MANASSES d'Hierges & his second wife Alix de Chiny (-[26 Jan or 25 Nov] 1213).

but I can't see the connection to a Yolanda you are adding to the tree a century? earlier.

Is there something else I'm missing?

No, you're not missing anything, the point is that this Yolanda is kind of ubiquitous and there is an obvious lack of information, that is the whole point of the discussion.

I think this kind of question is a good use of the project...I can list the concerns and link the discussion to them.

We question the existence of this person, we find no evidence, and we would like, through collaboration like the sources you've identified above as a team to reach a conclusion as to who this is and where she belongs. The discussion above identifies what we know and what we don't, the generation to which she belongs as well as her actual existence is the question. The dates we think we know suggest the generation as shown. IF she is somehow related to Wedric II le Barbu then this may locate her generation but it exposes other issues on Geni to resolve

I think one issue I face here is that I can't just ignore the possible existence, even though we can yet confirm it. 

What are the secondary sources where she appears, David?