Francois Savoie Oral Tradition discusion

So how did the tradition begin? Well in addition tot he above, we believe that Francois Savoie was born around 1620, possibly France. Although There is no known birth record or baptism record for Francois Savoie we do no that Thomas Francis of Savoy, prince of Carignano was in France just before Francois Savoie was born.

"Agli anni della prima guerra del Monferrato seguì un periodo di formazione diplomatica. Tommaso accompagnò il fratello maggiore in Francia in occasione delle sue nozze con Cristina di Borbone (1619)."

Translation: "A period of diplomatic training followed the years of the first Monferrato war. Tommaso accompanied his elder brother to France on the occasion of his wedding with Christina of Bourbon (1619)."

Here is the link to the source, about half way down. https://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/savoia-carignano-tommaso-franc...

So how would that Oral Tradition begin. Here is how I envision it:

I think the story of Francois Joseph Savoie and the Oral Tradition is straight forward and here is my version with as few speculations as possible:

Francois Joseph Savoie is the illegitimate son of Tomaso. Growing up he had some contact with his relatives with the House of Savoy because the Oral Tradition contains details that he had a "Spanish princess for a grandmother"

When he was a young man it was determined that he had no future within the House of Savoy and his other options as an illegitimate son where limited. He was given a modest sum of money to travel to Normandy to join a group of colonists heading to New France.

Once in New France, he found himself living in a beautiful country with no infrastructure as Europeans understood it. Survival took immense individual and communal effort. Francois did what was excepted of him, he farmed to live, he was a respected member of the community and did he part without any fuss and lived out his life. Why didn't he say anything of his heritage as the son of Tomaso? Probably because it didn't contribute to his or anyone else's survival. His neighbors aren't going to ask for details of his life in the House of Savoy. They will ask: "What did you do today so we as a community can survive another winter?"

And the end of his life on his deathbed, Francois felt he owed his children the truth of where he came from and so he told them. Francois wasn't creating a genealogical record, he didn't envision that he was going to have a million descendants across a vast continent and he certainly wasn't creating a record for 21st century scholars to argue about. He just cared that his children knew. And since Francois wasn't known as a "teller of tall tales" or known to be dishonest, they believed him.

The Oral Tradition was passed on from there. In many lines it died out, especially as the connection to Savoie family became remote. But, remarkedly, it did survive in many others, especially lines like mine where the connection to the Savoie family is more recent.

So there it is, simple and direct and I think far more plausible then saying the Oral Tradition is a complete fabrication. I would also point out that up until recently the story was widely accepted as true and it wasn't until recently in the internet age that there has been pushback by professional genealogists. Some of these same French Canadian genealogists who say that Francois Savoie's story is a myth are also the ones who say that no French settler married a Native (False!!) or that all of them were hearty Norman farmers (false!).

My Aunt Rita in her story to me told me that we Savoies came from Royalty, that the first Savoie in Canada was forced to leave Europe and that his grandmother was a Spanish Princes. None us knew it at the time but Thomas Francis of Savoy, prince of Carignano mother is Catherine Michelle of Savoy, princess of Spain That would mean that Francois's grandmother was a Spanish Princess.

Here are other Oral Tradition stories from around North America:

"From an email from Ms. Lori R from New Brunswick: "My family is from New Brunswick. I have an aunt who just passed away last week who was 90 and was the one who led me down this rabbit hole and I've been hooked since. I've looked up everything I could get to find proof of Francis savoie being royal , but was told this is not the real story. But my aunt who has Lejeune family that is mikmaq, and that's how I found him....this story has so much history, I have become sure from her stories that she left me with all our family history that this one she believed with all her heart. She loved the saints.... She was very devout. Thanks for anything about this. I was just interested in maybe seeing the family chart you mentioned in your responses . By Louis Savoie. My aunt passed knowing I was going to continue this for her. "

"Here is another oral tradition record from Richard Adrien G from Manitoba: "But I do remember the stories that my great aunt Marie-Jeanne Baril (1903-1984) use to tell us that we were descendants of a prince thru the Savoie line and that we have some Italian blood in us. She said that it is a story that has been carried down thru the ages. My mom thought that it was BS, but I was very interested in listening to the story. And also one of my other cousins Roger Levasseur had done some work on it and had even gone to Italy to check it out. We have discussed it with other cousins and we all agree that it must be true."

"I am Erica Howton. I first became aware of an oral tradition that Francois Savoie, the colonist, confessed on his death bed to his children that he was the son of Tomasso Savoie from a post on geni.com in 2009 by a descendant, Gregory, who was asking about the validity of the story."

"I'm not exactly sure on the exact date, but I believe it may have been thanksgiving day 1983 when I heard about the oral tradition. I remember my father Joseph Luke Despres, and my grandfather John Albert Despres, discussing it at the family dinner table at the home of my grandparents John Albert and Mary Anna Despres (her maiden name is Fortin) in National City, California. I was very young at the time so my memory of the details is a bit foggy, but I do distinctly remember the part about a distant great grandfather's deathbed confession that he was a prince of Savoy.

From https://www.geni.com/discussions/186267?msg=1527223"

The story is also mentioned in Louis Savoy's book on the history of the Savoy family in North America as given to him by his brother.

I am looking for anyone who has a gedmatch kit uploaded who either believes or suspects an Italian connection to the Princes Of Ottaino/Ottijano/Ottiano line of Medici lineage. I am trying to either prove or disprove this connection to my maternal line. My mother was born an Ottiano and this has been a great source of speculation. As with most things their family origin is a question mark. From her grandfather being abandoned at birth then reclaimed later on to a whole slew of what is most likely misinformation. The only concrete thing I am certain on is they had ties in Pico Italy

Catherine Michelle of Savoy, princess of Spain is my third cousin 13 times removed
Thomas Francis of Savoy, prince of Carignano is my third cousin 13 times removed.
Roland Frederick Savoie is my 19th cousin
..................................
You Normunds Āboliņš
→ Alfrēds Āboliņš
your father → Austra Aizsilniece
his mother → Mārcis Briedis
her father → Dāvis Briedis
his father → Oswald Hermann Ernst von Campenhausen
his father → Maria Clementine Freiin von Wolff
his mother → Marie Clementine de Fallois de Feoville
her mother → Jean Baptiste Charles Josephe de Fallois, baron de Feoville
her father → Jean Baptiste de Fallois de Feoville
his father → Jean Nicolas de Fallois de Feoville
his father → Anne Francoise le Fournier de Neuville
his mother → Madeleine de Montmorency d'Esquencourt
her mother → Benjamin de Montmorency, seigneur d'Esquencourt, Chevalier
her father → Jean de Montmorency, seigneur de Bours
his father → Gabriel de Montmorency, seigneur de Bours
his father → Nicolas de Montmorency, seigneur de Bours
his father → Hugues de Montmorency, seigneur de Bours
his father →
Philippe de Montmorency, seigneur de Croisilles
his father →
Philippine de Montmorency is my 17th great grandmother.
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
his mother →
Jean IV de Melun, seigneur d'Antoing, burggraaf van Gent
her brother →
Philippine de Melun
his daughter → Guillaumette de Luxembourg
her daughter → Robert II de Commercy, comte de Roucy
her son → Guillemette de Sarrenbruck, comtesse de Braine
his daughter → Duke Robert IV of the Mark, Hertog van Bouillon
her son → Henri Robert de La Marck, prince de Sedan
his son → Charlotte de La Marck
his daughter → Perrine Lacaillerot
her daughter → Claude Meunier
her son → Marie Meunier
his daughter → Claude-Philiberte Chrétien
her daughter → Marie Marguerite Ségoin
her daughter → Joseph Jacques
her son → Antoine Jacques
his son → Marie Judith Jacques
his daughter → Narcisse Savoie
her son → Joseph Savoie
his son →
Phileas J. Savoie
his son →
Roland Frederick Savoie
his son

My great grandmother Marie Rose Landry (born Savoie) d/o Joseph Moise Savoie & Madeleine Blanche Leblanc.
Moise's Savoie line goes back to Francois Savoie and Catherine Lejeune.
The Micmac connection is through Pierre Lejeune, the speculated brother of Catherine and Edmee Lejeune.
As for Catherine and Edmee Lejeune, no one knows with certainty who their parents were.
DNA has shown the girls maternal haplotype proves their mother's maternal line was from the Iberian Peninsula (Portugal or Spain).
If Pierre is their brother, his haplotype shows European.

Joseph Bolton you may be in for a few surprises. Are you sure you want to compare DNA to your oral story. It might not match and DNA is truth. I'm okay with your oral stories as that is pretty much all they are and I find them quite interesting but I expect Geni to search for other source documents and DNA may be your only recourse.

I have Savoie in my tree and you can rule in or out my gedmatch kits. Just know that I do not have an oral story of the Savoie family which is one of many many lines in my tree.

My Gedmatch kits that may or may not be relevant to your search are DP713053c1-#952024 and HJ7669608-#973127 R1b1b1a. There is also a Project Group (or there was) that you can join. Or start one. There appears to be others researching the Savoie line.

Nice to meet you.

nessie in Virginia

Catherine Michelle of Savoy, princess of Spain is your 8th cousin 13 times removed.
You
→ Mamie Lee Brooks (Williams)
your mother → Mamie Virginia
her mother → Nora Whitaker
her mother → Mary Jane Brooks
her mother → Thomas Baker Kerr
her father → Katherine "Caty" Kerr
his mother → Alice Ross
her mother → Rebecca Sarah Pratt
her mother → Thomas Vernon
her father → Robert Vernon
his father → James Vernon
his father → Elizabeth Vernon
his mother → John Eccleston
her father → Thomas Eccleston
his father → Catherine Eccleston
his mother → Margaret Halsall
her mother → James Stanley, Archdeacon of Chester
her father → Joan Goushill, Baroness of Stanley
his mother → Elizabeth FitzAlan, Duchess of Norfolk
her mother → Richard FitzAlan, 4th Earl of Arundel (Second Creation)
her father → Eleanor of Lancaster, Countess of Arundel and Warenne
his mother → Henry of Grosmont, 1st Duke of Lancaster, 4th Earl of Leicester and Lancaster, KG
her brother → Blanche of Lancaster
his daughter → Filipa de Lencastre, rainha consorte de Portugal
her daughter → Duarte I o Eloquente, rei de Portugal
her son → Fernando de Portugal, duque de Viseu
his son → Manuel I o Venturoso, Rei de Portugal
his son → Isabella of Portugal
his daughter → Philip II of Spain
her son → Catherine Michelle of Savoy, princess of Spain
his daughterConsistency CheckShow short path | Share this path
Shortest in-law relationship
====================== In-Law Relationship
Catherine Michelle of Savoy, princess of Spain is your 15th great grandmother's partner's daughter's ex-partner's granddaughter.
You
→ Mamie Lee Brooks (Williams)
your mother → Mamie Virginia
her mother → John William Whitaker
her father → James Monroe Whitaker
his father → Catherine Whitaker
his mother → Mary Susanna Bishop
her mother → Joshua Bishop
her father → Mary Bishop
his mother → John Barker
her father → Grace Barker
his mother → Suzannah Busby
her mother → Alice Gray, of St. Mary's & Machodoc
her mother → Thomas Moorman, ll, 'Man of the Moor'
her father → Sir John Thomas Moorman, l
his father → Sir Robarte Thomas Moorman
his father → Mungo Mure of Rowallan
his father → Lady Margaret (Boyd) Mure
his mother → James IV, king of Scots
her partner → Janet Stewart
his daughter → Henry II de Valois-Angoulême, king of France
her ex-partner → Elisabeth de Valois, of Valois
his daughter → Catherine Michelle of Savoy, princess of Spain
her daughter

Vanessa Brooks DP713053C1 Actually I am no longer following this discussion closely and I am no longer actively promoting one position on this or an other. All I can see is that I posted what I posted in good faith. I don't have any more to say on this.