Catherine Macdonald - Sources?

Sharon Doubell - there was an interesting comment in the resource with the papal dispensations discussing Alexander’s 3 illegitimate children and separation from his wife Elizabeth that Elizabeth Livingston, in her pension claim, “did” in fact have children. But either they did not survive or we don’t know their names. ACL (chart & notes) does not show children by Elizabeth and shows other children, including possible daughters. Would have to go into notes to see if the Munros has names for the girls.

By ACL I mean of course “ALI” (Acts of Lords of the Isles).

Series 4 > Acts of the lords of the Isles, 1336-1493 (1986) page 312 transcription.

https://digital.nls.uk/scottish-history-society-publications/browse...

Elizabeth was dead by 1 Jan. 1505/6, and the lands and lordships of Ross and Ardmannach were granted to others (RMS, ii, 2905; RSS, i, 1473, 1633). It has been assumed that there were no surviving children, but Elizabeth stated that she had borne children to John (CPL, xi, 671); in January 1505/6 ‘Elizabeth Ylis dochter to umquhil Johne lord Ills’ had lands in Islay granted to her for one year (RSS, i, 1420).

Series 4 > Acts of the lords of the Isles, 1336-1493 (1986) Appendix D (page 313)

https://digital.nls.uk/scottish-history-society-publications/browse...

Table 7: John’s descendants (notes below)

John > Angus Og1, John4, ?others5

Angus Og > Donald Dubh2, ?Angus

John4 > (notes 4 and 5 on page 315) … John4 daughter Elizabeth on record in 1506; a daughter sometimes called Margaret … perhaps Finvola, daughter of Celestine, and so John’s niece.

Just make sure I am reading note 5 correctly.

in January 1505/6 ‘Elizabeth Ylis dochter to umquhil Johne lord Ills’ had lands in Islay granted to her for one year (RSS, i, 1420).

So, reading again.

There was an Elizabeth, daughter of John, received lands in Islay in Feb 1505/6. John died Feb 1503, Elizabeth Livingston died by Jan 1505/6. This cannot have been a coincidence.

If this Elizabeth was a child of John by another woman, there would be no particular association with Livingston, date or property.

I don’t know that this is nailed, but there is a case for it. In any event, no Catherine’s running around this family.

See

Attached to John Davidson showing as husband of Elizabeth Macdonald

I think this might have to be Elizabeth, daughter of Elizabeth Livingston and John of Isles. (Livingston accused John of trying to murder her while pregnant.)

I don’t know that there’s any other way to account for a woman receiving Livingston lands and Islay lands.

I just found a marriage date citation for Elizabeth Livingston.

(The Auchinleck Chronicle indicates that by September 1449 Earl John had married Elizabeth Livingstone, daughter of James Livingstone, the king’s chamberlain. 2. Auchinleck Chronicle, 172 (f. 122r)

Page 179 of our doctoral dissertation, https://media.geni.com/p14/9c/30/a5/ab/534448612b7fc1c6/2015cochran-yuphd_1__original.pdf?hash=2056d9d91fc63278a6e9754a6a6855b84c7b136ffa39a054a711ba775a08ce51.1762156799

I can’t find folio 122 on line, but it another section of “The Auchinleck Chronicle” the marriage of Elizabeth Livingston and John, Earl of Ross, is indeed referred to:

https://archive.org/details/auchinleckchron00thomgoog/page/n68/mode...

Difficulties (and strengths) of this source material described in another PhD thesis, https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/8763927.pdf

See page 129 of https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/8763927.pdf for the view that John revolted in 1451 when as a result of the downfall of the Levingstons, James ll rescinded promises made upon the marriage, and John attempted to take back what was due.

I just needed to throw in something that had been bothering me. It turns out there’s not actually a good answer.

https://archive.org/details/highlandpapers01macp/page/52/mode/2up?q...

“ 1 Vide ante, p. 47, note 3. Gillespig is generally known as Celestine of V' Lochalsh. He was brother and not son of John, Lord of the Isles. For some mysterious reason the names Gilleasbuig, Archibald, and Celestine are regarded as synonyms.”

Anyway, to me, it seems possible there was a daughter by Elizabeth Livingston, also called Elizabeth. But she’s been married off as a “Catherine “ to John Davidson

John was “the native esquire and pupil” of John MacDonald. It does seem credible that his daughter could have been married to him, and there seems a notation that Elizabeth Livingston lived on the lands on Greenam in Ayrshire, perhaps the same lands John granted to him in 1476 (?), but lacking any other evidence, I’d suggest we rename Catherine to Elizabeth and break the marriage connection, with appropriate links within profiles for easy navigation.

Elizabeth Macdonald separated from Catharine Macdonald seen as wife of John Davidson “native esquire.”

Well, that was a lot of impressive research while I was sleeping. Go you!!!

Do try and take a look at Christine McGladdery’s PhD dissertation (1987) called Crown-Magnate Relations, 1437-1460.

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/8763927.pdf

She’s also the (2015) author of well regarded books on James ll, and she’s definitely got a lot more detail on the Livingston’s downfall, including that Earl John was supporting them (at least at first).

Wikipedia’s article on John is very opinionated and I’m not sure whose opinion it’s reflecting. So for example, Wiki writes he grew to despise Elizabeth because he married for power / a t the King’s behest. Somehow I think that’s someone’s political take, particularly if he’s getting along well with Livingston’s at first.

My reasoning for being skeptical that Elizabeth, daughter of John, was probably not the same as the Catherine Macdonald seen as John Davidson’s wife are:

• in 1505 she’s in Islay, not Greenan in Ayr
• would Earl John really have married off an only (?) daughter to his “native esquire”? Surely he would have aimed higher?
• plenty of Macdonald’s in the island. So identifying which daughter without specifics is not a wise idea. :)

I did start reading that PhD, and you're right - it looked good. (I'll try and actually come back properly)
Also did read and follow what you'd posted, and agreed with you. It's always great, imo, to outline the working research phase process in A discussion - as you've done - so nobody has to re-invent the wheel next time the profile is researched. I know I always appreciate it - and it makes the Discussion so much more productive as it develops over the years.

I'm trying to do a big pic sketch overview of the Macdonald descent line on Geni and sub-project for branch off Macdonalds - or make a good start on it - so I don't want to lose my train of thought there. I've invited you to collaborate - please go ahead and edit and add: it's going to rely on the Macdonald managers helping - over years - so not a one person job :-)

• Clan Donald
• Macdonalds of Sleat

Joined, but I know rather little about Sleat and Highland families in general. I’d been focused on Ayrshire.

The scope is ALL Macdonalds - creating sub projects as I go :-)