Alain "Dapifer" fitz Flaald, Seneschal of Dol - Allain fitz Flaaid - Seneschal of Dol, Mercenary & Crusader

Started by Charles Frith on Sunday, July 31, 2022
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You show Allain fitz Flaaid (c1024-c1080) First you show Allain as dying After 1080.... what exactly is the timeframe you are working with..."After" can be anything from 1081 to 2022.... and this is an important date. In doing my own research I usually use a 5-10 year span (the average) If this is your intention, then keep in mind that Allain would be deceased by 1090AD and he would have been a maximum of 66 years of age (56 yrs if he died closer to 1080. Also, how did you arrive at the death death of 1080? It would help others if you let us know so we do not reduplicate efforts.

You have Allain listed, by occupation as Seneschal of Dol (effective 1045), a mercenary and a crusader.

As a Seneschal of Dol, he was, in fact, something closer to an Administrator of a large household and all the people employed thereunder. This position was often a royal appointment within a royal ducal. By the time Allain assumed his office of Seneschal I c 1045 (at the approximate age of 21), which is often considered the beginning of the end of the Middle Ages or the end of the High Medieval period to the beginning of the Late Medieval period, this term “Seneschal” was beginning to take on a more specific meaning to that of a royal office in charge of an assigned administration/province (in the new province of West France these were called Seneschalties…in Northern France they were call bailli, or bailiffs…in short, it can be argued these positions were more of a “Governor” of sorts of their assigned province.

With that being said.
A Crusader was a member of the Crusades of the Middle (or Medieval) Ages. There were a total of either (8) of these crusades that were aimed (primarily church sponsored and led) the Muslim Wars of Expansion. The crusader was responsible to check the spread of Islam, retake/reclaim the Holy Land in the Eastern Mediterranean, reclaim and reconquer former Christian territories lost to Islam supporters and conquer pagan believers (and forcefully upon threat of death, “converting” them to Christianity) and the territories in which they lived
The First Crusade, a paid military service, led by Raymond of Saint Gilles began in 1096 and ended in 1099. The total trip from Dol, France to Jerusalem (one way) was 2,071.2 miles…the entire crusade was round trip (4,142.4 miles) and they did this almost entirely on horseback.
Note: Traveling by horse was slow (to say the least). A horse unburdened can travel approximately 10 miles per day…a horse with a burden, either human or other, is diminished to between 5-10 miles per day….One could push their horse to travelling 20 miles per day BUT at the end of that day, one would have killed his horse and, thus, lost his mode of transportation. Further, add into each day, periods of rest for the horse, times to nourish, rest and (jokingly) check WAZE and GOOGLE Maps for direction and most travelers are not getting very far each day…the entire trip from Dol to Jerusalem could take the crusader as much at 18 months each way….with all that said… now add to the burden of the horse the additional weight of the armour of the rider as well as the supplies and weapons they each carried…..how far could you run in one spurt? These are just SOME of the factors a crusader would have encountered; others would be, replacing horses along the way (a physical cost), periods of rest (perhaps several days at a time), physical conflicts with Islam/Pagan “enemies” and the periods of recuperation and healing that would follow, including burying the dead…. And so much more……
A mercenary, contrary, was an individual who fought your battle for a price.. He was a “hired gun”, a “Soldier of Fortune” if you will. This was NOT a paid military service… This was strictly an individual fighting your battles for the highest price available (often at exuberantly high prices). A mercenary fought for HIS personal gain (money, lands, titles, etc) and it was not politically motivated as were the crusaders who often fought to irradicate the unbelieving heretic to Christianity…a very political/church involved movement.
With all the above said ….
Given that you stated in Allain’s profile that he died about 1080 (After 1080), it is a safe bet to assume that Allain was NOT a crusader. Even if Allain at died as late as age 66 (1090) the first crusade began in 1996…long after his assumed death of c1080/After1080….I also do not see any notations as to what brought you to believe Allain fitz Flaaid died around the 1080AD period. Something led you to this date… what was it?
Also, I find it difficult to believe a man of 72 would have had the vitality and strength and vigor to join a Crusade, travel to Jerusalem and back within a three year time period and do the necessary fighting to bring (relatively new…it was only approximately 1000 years old) Christian Religion to the unbelieving pagan and Islamic worlds.
Also, at the time of Allain fitz Flaaid’s death, most burials were within the walls of local churches. Do we know where our ancestor was buried? Your profile mentions Allain died in Dol, St Malo, Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne, France. How do we know this?
If we know he was buried in St. Malo, then we should know a more exact time and place of death rather than sometime “after 1080”……there is a reason your research led you to this date…what is it?
If Allain died in Dol…we should have the same. Dol, if you will recall, is 6km from the English Channel…and, at the same time, is 22km southeast of the town of Saint Malo….they are two completely different towns altogether…..so, from your profile, I’m not sure which town you are saying Allain died, and, thus, is buried in… you have no explanations……. This would tell a lot about his life and validating such claims as found in his profile. It would be nice to find validations for both his occupations and his death/burial.

Sorry, I have no knowledge about this profile. You would have to ask the person who curated it or made changes to it.

Isn't that part of what these discussions are for? I have found that oftentimes the person, the curator, once the post is made, wishes not to be part of the conversation, let alone discussion......

The listed curator is on hiatus. The only field that is locked is the name; feel free to amend / edit other fields, as long as you add citations to support the changes you make.

I

Hello Charles - I am away from home at the moment and without my large desktop PC, I find it less easy to explore my genealogy websites. Therefore I request your patience before receiving any explanation from me.
However, your exceedingly lengthy diatribe initially reads like a rebuke. Or, in any case, a lecture. Not a very friendly approach I feel.
I shall attempt to soothe your ire when I return home
Antonya

Sorry. I don't know anything about this person either. He had an interesting life though. I look forward to what we can learn! I hope all of you have a great rest of your week! Take care!

Alain "Dapifer" fitz Flaald, Seneschal of Dol is my 27th great grandfather.

How long are you on hiatus for Antonya? I noticed you last communicated on this ancestor was February 8th, 2022 and I'm hoping the questions highlighted by Charles Frith is taken into account so we, the ancestors of Allain Fitz Flaad can be updated with the information correctly or at least the sources noted for us. I dont want to add information I've accessed if its not right.

Just so you know, WE would not be called,"ancestors of Alain "Dapifer" fitz Flaald", Senechal of Dol, with him being born circa. 1024. "We" would be correctly addressed as, "descendants". As, I am his 27th great grandson. He is also my 23rd great uncle's second great grandfather. It is good to see people interested in getting correctly the sources of establishing correctly the ancestors profiles.

Hi Stephen, how are we not ancestors, I’m confused! I know we’re descendants but we would be ancestors of his to be descendants yes? This geneology stuff is confusing lol

Charles Frith - I removed “mercenary” and “crusader” from the “occupation” field for you.

Good morning Erica, thanks for all the facts in the About, section of this ancestor. This gives much insight of,"Dapifer". From what I have seen, he would be called an Administrator, maybe? I am currently researching his possible descendants, William, Walter, and quite possibly Simon. Lots of interesting leads of this, "Dapifer".

Antonya Angelika Byrony Cooper.... my notations were not a rebuke... they were in fact questions..... I am simply asking for validations of the claims in the profile.... at the same time, I am giving historical facts, which every genealogist should gather, which do not meld with some of the information in this profile.....which is why I have asked... Where did you get this information? How did you validate this information? What lead you to this particular decision?........ For example, if we know Allain died in Dol.. why would he be buried in St Malo? At 25 miles away, that would equate to a 5 day journey... and without embalming.....the smell would have been horrendous.....but most genealogists don't think of these little facts in their research....many simply "click, add and go"......the same applies to Allain being a member of the Crusades, calculating in his age at the time the Crusades began....it doesn't make sense.........In my research.... I want the truth and accuracy.....I don't want a fairy tale.....fairy tales belong in the children's area of Barnes & Nobel Books Stores...... Allain fit Flaaid is my direct ancestor....and I would think that anyone who descends from him (and there are many of us) would want the same.......For Example.... I spent well over six months tearing apart records merged by well intentioned people (Ancestry.com) on one Sir Alexander Baker, Surgeon to Crown who died in 1685....most of those records belonged to one of several Alexander Bakers in the American Colonies... not the Surgeon to the Crown..... it's the same principle here.......I'm asking for documentation and validation which, quite honestly, there doesn't seem to be any.........Erica Howton... Thank you

I think there are differing interpretations of the Flaad line, the Fox & the Round, and that’s why you’re seeing discrepancies. This profile also seems to include some elements of an old genealogy, but is mostly Round.

It does not agree with the presentation in Cawley’s Medlands:

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/brittcope.htm#AlanFitzFlaalddiedbef...

The old secondary source
Is here:

https://www.mathematical.com/dolalan1020.html

For me to help you, I’d prefer you went down a couple of generations and start back up. This Alain shows as my 37th gg but I’ll start from my American immigrant, as there are often errors right there.

Correction: showing as my 29th gg.

Some bits of the tree seem to be leftover hash from the "tradition" (scathingly exploded by Round) that the Stewarts were the descendants of Banquo of Scotland and thus "related" to the House of Dunkeld.

"Tittensor Mac Kenneth" is a particular offense because that is NOT the way a female patronymic would have been formed. Only MEN used "Mac" (SON of). Women were "Nic" or "Ingen" (Daughter of). As for "Tittensor" - it's the name of a village in Staffordshire, and at that period *very* unlikely to be used as a given name, and ten times more unlikely to be the given name of a Breton child.

Solid documentation, such as there is, starts with a Flaald whose father is uncertain (but was NOT a Fictional "Alain". He is thought to have had a brother (and possibly a father) named Hato, and there is no record of any other brothers. He had three (and ONLY three) sons: Alain (the Sheriff of Shropshire), another Flaald (correctly identifiable s Flaald fitz Flaald), and Riwallon, probably the youngest, who became a monk. No "Robert".

I don't know what gave Round the notion that there were two Alains, uncle and nephew, when the scanty evidence suggests that "they" may have been just one man. When in doubt, go for the simplest explanation that isn't contradicted by clear evidence. (There are extant cases of men who left relatives in charge when they went on crusade, and reassumed their responsibilities when they came back.)

While there were eight or nine official "Crusades", they weren't the only times people went off to the Holy Land. There were always pilgrims coming and going, and sometimes men went over there to fight a bit and then come back if they survived.

In sum, the tree needs radical pruning, and some branches need to be reassigned.

And the about is confusing and doesn’t seem to fit the sendschals of Dol, at least as Cawley constructs them.

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