R' Judah Leibish Morgenstern of Goraj - New discovery - the document proof about the son of R Lejbus Morgensztern of Goraj

Yigal Burstein Please have a look!

Bella Marianchik

Private User

Thank you for this comment, I do think the correct surname of bride is Kotwax. But how do you know Hela means Aharon? I’ve never met this association before.

Private User
Yes ,definitely. It’s ת letter, thank you for this correction.
But if anybody is going to merge the new couple into the general R’ Morgensztern tree? It is locked and I cannot do it by myself.

שם משפחתו של רבי לייבוש היה הלפרין, ורק לפי גירסא אחת הוא והבן ישראל שינו את השם למארגנשטערן, וכן רבינו מקאצק.
השאלה עד כמה אפשר להסתמך על נתונים במרשם בפולין כאשר ידוע לי שלא תמיד מסרו נתוני אמת.

מעניין מה מתרחש בשנים האחרונות שנולדים עוד בנים ובנות, וכן להרבי מקאצק מה שלא מופיע באף אחד מהספרים המוסמכים שיצאו עוד בפולין מפי סופרים מוסמכים כגון גליקסמאן ועוד.

שמחה מורגנשטרן
אפשר לסמוך בבטחה על הנתונים שנרשמו בשנים הראשונות לרישום האזרחי: במרשם הרומאי-קתולי, יהודים נרשמו על פי מה שנקרא צו נפוליאון והיו בשליטה הדוקה עד 1825, אז בוטלו בתי המשפט של האינקוויזיציה ורוסיה לאחר שתפס את השלטון בפולין, השתלט על כל הניירת והטיל מיסים עצומים על היהודים. או אז החלו היהודים להסתיר נתונים על הרכב המשפחות, על הולדת ילדים - בעיקר בנים, שנלקחו בכוח לצבא הצאר. ניסיוני רב השנים בחיפוש ועבודה עם מסמכים ארכיוניים מאותה תקופה תמיד מאשר מידע אנציקלופדי וכמעט תמיד משלים אותו במידע שפשוט לא היה ידוע קודם לכן. אבל הוא אף פעם לא מפריך עובדות ידועות. אינני רואה את מספר בניו החדש של הרב לייבוס במידע שנמצא. השאלה היחידה היא מי מבניו נקרא הלה במחזור היומיומי - הילל או אהרון או הבן שהיה לו שם כפול.

Private User
Great, thank you!

עם כל הכבוד לא התקבל הסבר למה נקרא מורגנשטרן כאשר כל האחים מלבד רבי ישראל נקראו הלפריין כפי שכותב ההיסטוריון גליקסמאן עמוד 9 כדלהלן.

די בידע ברידער האבעןן זיך גערופען מארגנשטערן בעת זייערע אנדערע ברידער זאגט מען האבען זך גערופען היילפרין צוליב ווועלכער אורזאך דאס איז אזוי געווען , איז אונז נישט בעקאנט .

כפי הנראה לרבי מקאצק לא היה כל קשר עם אחיו ואחיותיו מלבד עם ר' ישראל.וכן עם בת אחותו היותומה חוה לאה שנתיתמה מאביה ובשנת תר"ג אירס אותה עם רבי ליפמאן שובקס אשר גם מינה אותו כמו"צ בקהילת קאצק.

Bella Marianchik

Dear Bella,

Many things have been written about The Kozker Rebbe and his family, some of the things are true, some are mistakes, some are lies...only we the family members know how to diagnose which of the things are true and which are not

That's why I asked you in the past in a nice and dignified way to stop and deal with our family
...
For some reason that is not clear to me, you continue to obsess over our family and bring wrong information time after time.

The truth was the most important thing to the Kozker Rebbe, and therefore also to us the family members

When you are asked nicely, to stop and add wrong things, and you insist (without any knowledge on the subject) to continue and engage, referring to me people who claim to be members of my family - and they are not, you hurt both my feelings and the feelings of the other family members who grew up and were raised on the teachings of The Kozker Rebbe-The truth is the most important thing

I can't tell you what to do, but when you want to connect to the general tree with wrong information, here, as a descendant, I have the right to express my opinion and object

That's why I'm asking you again... stop dealing with our family tree... of course you can start your own private tree, but don't connect to the general tree of our family with wrong information, you're hurting our feelings - and here you'll encounter a very big wall of his descendants who will oppose your actions
Haim

Private User

So far, for about a year and a half, Bella has reappeared every time with incorrect/misleading information (at best)...first, this thing must stop!!! She hurts (intentionally) our feelings,...

regardless of the topic of the discussion.

Second, as I wrote to you, there is no problem connecting the profiles, but locking them, and only curators will have access to them, and that way we can (at least partially) avoid adding accidental/imaginary incorrect things

I will just add and say that in the book that I started writing, and that will be studied by scholars, such information, which is based on speculations only, will not be included in the book

Private User

דבר אחרון,אני כותב בעברית,כולנו מבינים עברית(כולל בלה)

לצורך העניין,נגיד שהייתי עוסק במשפחה שהיא לא שלי ומישהו מבני המשפחה היה פונה אליי וכותב,שאני לא מבין היטב את משפחתו,אני טועה ופוגע ברגשותיו,והוא מבקש ממני להפסיק ולעסוק בזה,בי נשבעתי,שהייתי מיד מפסיק לעסוק במשפחה הזו,ומבקש את סליחתו של אותו אדם

כאשר ישנו מנוי הנמצא בזהות בדויה,והוא לא מנוי פרו,ואין לך דרך לדעת מי הוא,והוא עוסק במשפחה ידועה ומכובדת למרות שהתבקש מספר פעמים יפה ובנועם,להפסיק...כן ישנה חשיבות מי הוא אותו אדם,ומדוע הוא עוסק בצורה אובססיבית במשפחה הזו,ומהן מטרותיו

Dear Haim,

R’ Lejbus Morgensztern isn’t the father of only son. Therefor there are so many profile managers on his account. As far as I’m concerned Morgensztern family members are well presented in my own family tree ( distant relationship by marriage of my grandfather’s second cousin, but nevertheless!). So I don’t understand who gave you an exclusive right to usurp the whole Morgensztern family which is very big? You are the descendant of Menachem Mendel only.

So you have two options: 1) to accept another people will add found relatives to his father’s/brother’s tree as this function is provided by policies of Geni.com that I advised you to learn last time you tried to attack me with your not founded claims.
2) to built your private family tree without giving any permission to other users to add/ manage or see it

Unlike yourself I do respect the competence of the curators of Geni and other people with very reach experience in genealogy and research. That’s why I opened the public discussion about the historical document I found. Your personal ( very emotional) opinion doesn't matter here. With all my respect to your family background. ONLY the archival papers play the role, that you cannot contest without providing the DOCUMENTAl EVIDENCE of their insolvency.

I want to remind you that one’s you well accepted the results of my personal research about Brucha Rappoport - Menachem Mendel’s daughter from his second marriage. That time my qualifications were good enough for you? You even sent me the request to add the profile of her I created to your personal project of Kocker Rabbies. Why? I ignored your request during few months so you desired to force me however and asked the help from another Geni curators to do it !!!

Hypocrisy, no? Be honest not to touch anything I’m doing and don’t do the selection of my work results that you like more! Of course you have the right to express your opinion about everything. Me too I have the same right.

It is ridiculous you are defending your exclusive privileges for the past of people that you refuse their right to have! If some archival records were unknown / not revealed before it DOESN’T MAKE them false or invented! I don’t make them by myself in my room using some magic printer. I just find them in the archival books and present them to a PUBLIC judgment in order to obtain the opinions of ALL profile managers that certainly not less professional or less educated than you in the subject of the discussion. Your disrespectful behaviour towards another Geni users is just unacceptable. The fact you are one of the descendants doesn’t make you neither more competent nor more qualified in the genealogy. You are totally unable to read the original records or to find anything by yourself that could be useful for proof’s providing. But you are too much demanding for others. Without any special powers for this.

My personal Geni record is just beyond your level as the researcher! I was able to provide the dozens of proofs for hundreds of profiles that SUPPORTED the scientific or historical information! My discoveries were helpful even to correct the Wikipedia content related to the most prominent Jewish personalities. I was able to link the unknown abandoned tombstones from the old Jewish cemeteries to the real people buried under them. I was able to provide home addresses and historical records and precise information about the countless number of people that you have no idea how much work I already did in relationship with them! And moreover I have the excellent references from many people whom I helped to reveal the family past.

So, dear Haim, calm down please and first try to understand that the genealogy isn’t a hobby, it is a real scientific research and there isn’t any place for emotions like yours. Stop bothering me!
I really don’t need your laurel crown of R’ Morgensztern descendant. My own family background is much more honourable.

Bella

Private User

למרות שקשה לי לכתוב בעברית…
אדוני הנכבד, זו לא הפעם הראשונה שאני מקבלת טענות מופרכות לחלוטין מצידו של חיים. זה מעצבן הוא רודף אחרי. אין חובה להיות מנוי PRO באתר זה. יש גם בני משפחת מורגנשטרן בעץ שלי. זה נותן לי את הזכות לחפש את מוצאם מבלי לבקש רשות מצאצאים ישירים, נכון? ההתנהגות של חיים כלפיי מקוממת, אני מוחה נגד ההפגנות הפומביות האלה והדיונים על של האישיות שלי. זה מעליב. אני מבקשת שתסביר לו את כללי השימוש באתר, הוא, כנראה, לא כל כך מעודכן.
בלה

שמואל רויד

מה שכותב גליקסמאן הוא שכל יתר האחים (מלבד הרבי מקוצק ואחיו) נשארו עם השם הלפריין , הסיבה לא ידועה, אבל זה ברור שהם נקראו הלפרין, ולכן הדברים דורשים בירור.

Bella Marianchik

מה שמקומם זו ההתנהגות שלך...ההיתממות הזו שלך פתאום,את לא יודעת עברית,את לא יודעת מה רוצים ממך,את הופכת עצמך לקורבן...זה מקומם!!!

את יכולה לעסוק כמה שתרצי במשפחת מורגנשטרן,אבל ברגע שאת נוגעת בבני משפחתי,זה עושה אותי מעורב,אם תרצי ואם לא....כמו גם הפרופילים שאני פתחתי,את פתחת פרופילים מקבילים מיזגת אותם,בכך הפכת למנהלת,וחתכת אותם מעץ המשפחה שלי...
זו לא התנהגות של קורבן,אלא התנהגות של מישהי שיש לה אובססיה למשפחה שלי,ומעוניינת להזיק לנו

אף אחד,ואני מדגיש,אף אחד,לא יאמר לי כיצד לנהוג עם עץ המשפחה שלי,שאני הקמתי,וכמובן את האחרונה שיש לך מה לומר בנדון

ואם את הקורבן,השכילי אותנו,וכתבי את האמת,מי את,ומדוע את עוסקת בצורה אובססיבית במשפחה שלי על ענפיה השונים

Bella Marianchik

You are simple, either wrong or delusional, I have never dealt with Bracha Rappaport's side, and I have never asked for your help in this matter

In addition, you don't know me, and you don't know what level I'm at, you're trying to impress curators that supposedly you have knowledge, and I don't... do me a favor, it's pathetic...

With all your "knowledge", so far you have been wrong in your every claim...

And yet, if you have no negative intentions but only pure genealogical intentions, why do you refuse to say who you really are, and why of all the families in Geni, only my family is you obsessively concerned with

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski

What?! Who am really I? Are you serious? What kind of information do you need from me? And what you need it for? Who you think you are? FBI , Shabak or what? My name it’s just enough- - not more and not less. I’m a Geni user. It’s incredible what you are doing now!
I really don’t care what kind of level you have believe me. It was you, not me that began to chase me. With stupid and unfounded accusations. My profile is public open, all I do on Geni isn’t a secret, I’m a genealogy amateur and spent years to discover the history of Polish Jews including the most important rabbinic families that by the chance related to mine. But for an unknown reason you decided to choose me as your victim and repeatedly clinging to me with stupid claims.

It’s just enough, Haim! This internet site was made for genealogy purposes, it has its rules, please follow them. Very simple. Stop bothering people for things they never did that exist in your unfriendly and impolite imagination only!

By the way, the addition of the profile Brucha Rappoport that I manage and added a lot of precise information and relationships to (always supported by the prooflinks from the State Archive of Poland! that you quietly somehow accepted and didn’t say a word of gratitude!) to your personal project of Kocker Descendants you made on the 30th of April this year at 9:33.

FYI I manage simultaneously dozens of profiles of people - prominent members of Jewish community of a big number of at least 20 different towns in Poland. Without your permission. Imagine? So calm down - nobody needs your “sacred cows”! Keep them to yourself!

Bella Marianchik

I repeat again, maybe this time you will understand: I have never dealt with Bracha Rapaport's profile, therefore I do not have to accept or not accept the information you said you added to her profile!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You claim to come from a more "respectable" family than mine, great, be satisfied, then why are you obsessed with my family?

You claim to be an "expert genealogist"? Nice, then how come you're wrong time and time again, if you're such an expert?

You claim you don't know Hebrew? Ridiculous claim, we both know where you are from...how many lies can one woman lie?

Stop sending me people claiming that they and I are my cousins, it's pathetic,They are innocent people who believe in your practical stories, stop doing such things to them

And one last thing, it's enough to repeat time and time again on the topic of Bracha Rappaport, I never dealt with her profile, despite your claims

And one last thing, I'm one of the most active people in GENI, my name is visible and I don't use a pseudonym...with me everything is open, unlike you

And by the way, don't bother answering, because I won't answer you anymore!!!!!!!!!!!

Private User

יותר לא אענה לה,היא לא שווה את ההתייחסות שלי יותר...בזה סיימתי את דבריי בנושא הזה

Private User just noticed this thread.

I looked up "Hela" in Beider. He says it's probably short for the Yiddish name Heilman, or alternatively maybe a nickname for Elia.

The Polish aktas typically will have people's Yiddish names, with some exceptions for signatures in Hebrew at the bottom (and usually those are in Yiddish too). These were the names that people where known by to the Polish civil authorities, and they may have different forms from how the people recorded would have called themselves. They're definitely different from people's "shem kadosh" names. Even more complicated, people usually had double names, which were used interchangeably. They may use one name in one document, another name in a second document, maybe both names in a third document, and then a completely different nickname in a fourth one!

As a result, the names may not match up cleanly with rabbinical trees, which are usually based on haskamot, as well as on trees made by the families themselves. Those would typically be people's shem kadosh names.

I've also often found records in Polish and Lithuanian archives that mention children not otherwise recorded in bibliographies of rabbonim. In some cases these were kids who died at a younger age. In other cases, they were just children who didn't become rabbis themselves, and as a result were obscure. There are many many examples of this in the 1760s and 1790s tax poll records.

Private User
Thank you for this comment! I was also sure that HELA could have been a variant of ELA (Elia/ Eliahu) that epoch writing fashion (similar case - HETKA/ ETKA). I think that in his children’s marriages/ deaths/ his own death’s documents we would find the answer. Because only the comparisons of several different records could give the real picture - exactly as you say.