Sir Roger de Carminow, "Crusader" - Who Was Joanna, Wife of Roger Carminow?

She’s placed as daughter of Sir Geoffrey de DINHAM Knight (d 26 Dec 1258 in Buckland Dinham, Somerset, England) by genealogist Hal Bradley:

https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~hwbradley/genealogy/aqwg1357.htm#22361

https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~hwbradley/genealogy/aqwg1800.htm#32175

citing:

https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~hwbradley/genealogy/aqwc1800.htm#32...

1Maclean, John, The Parochial and Family History of the Deanery of Trigg Minor, in the County of Cornwall (London: Nichols & Son, 1873-1879.), 3:158, Family History Library, 942.37 K2ma.

2Vivian, John Lambrick, The Visitations of Cornwall: Comprising the Heralds' Visitations of 1530, 1573 & 1620 (Exeter: Pollard, 1887.), p. 72, Los Angeles Public Library, Gen 942.37 V858.

3The National Archives, AR/35/1 - 2.

Medievalist Ronny Bodine at soc.Gen.medieval has her a generation later, as daughter of Geoffrey’s son Oliver (d 26 Feb 1299) and sister of Josce/Joyce de Dinham (died 30 Mar 1301).

https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/5_L4n1kMODc/m/...

From the foregoing and the apparent chronology provided therein, and by Ronny Bodine in prior SGM posts [2], it would appear most likely that Joan, wife of Roger de Carminow and mother of (A) Oliver de Carminow and (B) Joan de Carminow, wife of William de Whalesborough, was a sibling of Sir Josce de Dinham (fl. ca. 1273-1300) and a daughter of Sir Oliver de Dinham of Hartland, Nutwell and Ilsington, Devon, Buckland Denham, Somerset and

Cardinham, Cornwall (d. 26 Feb 1298/9). This would add a bit to the ancestry of the Carminow and Whalesborough families.

More quotes from SGM in the Wikitree profile for her:

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Dinham-6#Evidence_that_Joan_was_a_Dinham

Evidence that Joan was a Dinham

In 1309 Joan, widow of Roger Carminow, made an agreement about her dower with her eldest son Oliver. The document has a seal with the arms of Carminow and Dinham together: "The arms on the shield suggest that Joan was a Dinham by birth, which seems not to be otherwise known (though it is asserted, without authority, by J.P. Yeatman, The Early Genealogical History of the House of Arundell, p. 257b)." Quoted here, which goes on to say: "Oliver de Dinham held the lands of Roger de Carminow senior and the wardship of his heir in 1277, according to James Whetter's "Cornwall in the Thirteenth Century", page 151. Whetter goes on to name Joan, wife of Roger junior, as being a Dinham."

It appears that Oliver Dinham, guardian of the underage Roger Carminow and Roger's inheritance, arranged Roger's marriage to his daughter Joan, whose eldest son was named Oliver.

Year of Birth

Joan's eldest son Oliver was "described as being thirty years of age at his father's death" in 1308.[1] If Oliver was born around 1278, this suggests a birth year for Joan of around 1260. This fits the assumption that her presumed father, Oliver Dinham, as guardian of the under-age Roger Carminow in 1277 (see below), arranged for Roger's marriage to his daughter Joan. It also means that Joan was the daughter of an unknown first wife of Oliver Dinham, as he didn't marry Isabella de Vere until about 1275.

Wikitree also cites Extinct Cornish Families, Part II by Mr. W.C. Wade, who has no origins for her:

https://patp.us/reading/extinct-cornish-families

The tomb at Mawgan-in-Menage is that of Sir Roger Carminow, the most distinguished member of his family. He was the grandson of Robert Carminow, of whom the first regular record is traceable in Col. Vivian and Dr. Drake's Cornish pedigrees. The surname of his wife, whose figure lies beside his, is lost; but her Christian name was Joanna, which seemed afterwards to have become a favourite one in this family.

Re: It also means that Joan was the daughter of an unknown first wife of Oliver Dinham, as he didn't marry Isabella de Vere until about 1275.

Oliver de Dinham, lord of Hertland

< soc.genealogy.medieval > C.P. Addition: Parentage of Josce de Dynham. Nov 18, 2004

In summary, I find no evidence that Sir Oliver de Dynham had an earlier marriage than his documented marriage to Isabel de Vere. I find that Sir Oliver de Dynham's grandson, John Dynham, was styled kinsman by Isabel de Vere's grandson, Hugh de Courtenay. I conclude therefore that Sir Oliver de Dynham's son, Josce, was the child of Isabel de Vere. Had another relationship existed between these parties existed, then Sir Oliver de Dynham and Isabel de Vere would themselves likely have had to obtain a dispensation for marriage, they being related through affinity, rather than kindred.

So you agree with Bradley’s placement at the earlier generation? I think others were thrown by who owned the guardianship of the minor Roger Carnimow.

Do we have a direct link to that book?

Here it is at FamilySearch.

Yeatman, John Pym, b. 1820 “Genealogical History of the House of Arundel”
Subjects: Arundel Family, Montgomery Family, Albini Family, Fitzalan Family

Book link: http://www.familysearch.org/library/books/idurl/1/482145

Page 257:

http://www.familysearch.org/library/books/idviewer/482145/269

Page 264:

http://www.familysearch.org/library/books/idviewer/482145/276

I’m uploading the pages to the profile for Joanna de Dinham and her Dinham family.

Likewise, she is shown as Johanna, no last name, but remarried to a John Arundell, in Parochial and and Family History of the Parishes of St. Teath and Temple in the County of Cornwall https://archive.org/details/parochialfamilyh00macl/page/n87/mode/1u...

Is that John Arundel findable, or is if a mixup with her grand daughter Elizabeth Arundel

John Arundel - can we match him to existing Arundel profiles on geni?

If we adjust Joanna’s birth date to c 1265, we lose her as daughter of Geoffrey de Dinham, Knt. (died December 26, 1258)

Well off widowers marrying is more the usual, so John l it is unless it’s a different Arundel. Branch.

I’ll look again in http://www.familysearch.org/library/books/idurl/1/482145

https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~soskernow/history/arundell_lanherne...

1308 –John Arundell I died before this year.

The date of death for John de Arundel l, of Treloy, is given as “before 2 Edw ll” (1308) at http://www.familysearch.org/library/books/idviewer/482145/266

(Page 254 of “The History of the House of Arundel”).

“Arundell of Lanherne 1 of 4” Louise Staley et al, Dec 25, 2004. https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/6T7u14gv8VU/m/...

No one who looks like a widow Carminow in the pedigree.

Peter Stewart at https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/6T7u14gv8VU/m/...

<chomp> If anyone can throw any light on who Richard Pincerna was it would be appreciated.

I don't think his origin has ever been traced - from memory John Pym Yeatman in _The Early Genealogical History of the House of Arundel_ (London, 1882) tried to make him a younger son of the king's pincerna William d'Aubigny, earl of Arundel & the dowager queen Adeliza, but this is no more sensible than many other conjectures in that foolish book - the guiding notion being that all Arundels must be connected to each other and decended as grandly as possible, so that any even a provincial functionary in the household of a royal bastard should be linked as closely as dates allow to the greatest contemporary holder of the office of pincerna.

:) So I take it there were in fact other Arundel families.

What’s throwing me is John de Arundel l, of Treloy death date of before 1308/9, as that’s approximately the same as Roger Carminow’s. So either she had exceptionally bad luck in a second husband; it’s a different John Arundel; or the marriage is spurious altogether,

https://ukga.org/browse.php?action=ViewRec&DB=13&bookID=232&pagecou... Not in Visitations for Arundel.

The chronology for Joan (b say 1265) is what’s having the soc.Gen.medievalist’s place her as daughter of Oliver de Dinham, a generation down. But regardless of generation, a group of skeptical medievalists accept her as a Denham because of the guardianship of Sir Oliver Carminow, Knt.

(Notes on that should be in his profile but aren’t. Dang.)

Evidence for Joan as a Dinham that is not from the Arundel book.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Dinham-6#Evidence_that_Joan_was_a_Dinham

http://soc.genealogy.medieval.narkive.com/gb60uYLH/roger-de-carmino...

In 1309 Joan, widow of Roger Carminow, made an agreement about her dower with her eldest son Oliver. The document has a seal with the arms of Carminow and Dinham together: "The arms on the shield suggest that Joan was a Dinham by birth, which seems not to be otherwise known (though it is asserted, without authority, by J.P. Yeatman, The Early Genealogical History of the House of Arundell, p. 257b).

Oliver de Dinham held the lands of Roger de Carminow senior and the wardship of his heir in 1277, according to James Whetter's "Cornwall in the Thirteenth Century", page 151. Whetter goes on to name Joan, wife of Roger junior, as being a Dinham."

It appears that Oliver Dinham, guardian of the underage Roger Carminow and Roger's inheritance, arranged Roger's marriage to his daughter Joan, whose eldest son was named Oliver.

If I follow it right, The coat of arms of Dinham is on the document AR/35/1 - 2 Carminow

Reference: AR/35/1
Creation dates: 1309, Saturday 22nd Feb

Scope and Content
(Saturday St Peter's Chair, 2 Edw [II]); at Merthin

John *

NOTES:

[1] PRO, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice
[AR/17 - AR/50], AR/35/1]
Note: the notation calling Oliver de Carminow "George Oliver,
Monasticon Dioecesis Exoniensis" [bracketed above] is a recurrent
transcription error in the Arundell files on the PRO.

(Quoted here - https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/5_L4n1kMODc/m/...)

(Not sure I’m proficient enough at the National Archives to find the link, and they charge to see more than the catalog summary,).

Tagging the profiles makes it clearer to me.

• Whetter James. Cornwall in the 13th Century : A Study in Social and Economic History. Lyfrow Trelyspen 1998. Page 151. [[Oliver de Dinham, lord of Hertland Oliver de Dinham, lord of Hertland] Oliver de Dinham] held the lands of [[Roger de Carminow Roger de Carminow] Roger de Carminow senior] and the wardship of his heir in 1277. Joan, wife of [[Sir Roger de Carminow, "Crusader" Sir Roger de Carminow, "Crusader"] Roger junior], was a Dinham.

So Oliver de Dinham (1234-1299) makes more chronological and logical sense as Joan’s father. Marrying his ward to his child was a frequent practice, wasn’t it?

But that brings us to his wife problem. The medievalists saw no evidence for a wife other than Isabel de Vere, Lady of Oakhampton but they have a marriage date of “after 1273” when she became the widow of John de Courtenay, Lord of Okehampton

Does it work for Joan to have been born say 1275? It certainly does not if her son Oliver Carminow was born 1278.

Heh. You’ve had it too easy with people who put their entire pedigrees in their names.

Private User how have you managed to avoid this Dinham => Denham discussion? Take a read at it. I’ve cleaned up the profiles of some of the earliest Dinhams and I’m getting lost in the Oliver’s.