Anastasia Ivanovna - Family cleanup

Started by Erica Howton on Thursday, December 22, 2022
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Léo Golovine advises:

the princess Anastasia of Ryazan (Anastasia Ivanovna) and her only brother Oleg Ivanovich, grand-prince of Riazan (Oleg Ivanovich, Grand Prince of Ryazan) are shown as children of Ioann Korotopol, prince of Pronsk & Ryazan (Ioann Korotopol, prince of Pronsk & Ryazan) and having a sister, Sofia of Ryazan (princess Sofia Ioannovna).

In fact that is NOT true.

The mistake is VERY OLD, basically 2.5 centuries after these events in XIVth century, Moscow official court genealogists (who composed the fundamental source called "Gosudarev Rodoslovets", which does have some errors, put this prince Ivan (Ioann Korotopol, prince of Pronsk & Ryazan) as their father, because 250 years later the genealogy of the Riazan branch of Riurikids, the least known, was not very clear for them, in addition there were TWO princes called Ivan in the region then... So they were confused).

Already in 1850s it was clearly proved by the historian Ilovayski that the REAL father of them is in fact Ivan Aleksandrovich, Grand Prince of Ryazan - a cousin.

All the modern Riurik specialists know that. For instance, Pchelov, in his fundamental book on the genealogy of Riurikids, writes all that CORRECTLY, without even mentioning that for 2 centuries there was a mistake on this matter. (As for Wikipedia, it does mention the former "officially accepted" version, and explains that it was proved to be a mistake, cf.

Why is it shocking?
Because Korotopol (shown as father of Oleg and Anastasia, which is false) personally KILLED their (real!) grand-father (Alexander Mikhailovich, prince of Pronsk). So instead of having their REAL father (Ivan Aleksandrovich, Grand Prince of Ryazan), they have the killer of their grand-father. Totally immoral.

More references:

[note: I’m going to look for and post English language sites also, to make sure I understand correctly before helping to move profiles].


If anyone knows differently from what Leo posts, please advise.

For fun, I’m tagging Livio Scremin & Private User who have shown interest in Riurik dynasty.

Eww, that's awful.

I don't know the Russian dynasties, but am available to help if Curator Tools are needed.

Definitely - and let’s learn. I was going to try genealogics,org (Leo van der Pas site) to see if they have the “traditional” pedigree or the more current. That’s important, because Leo is a “go to”, and it probably can be updated if need be.

Léo Golovine - move done, please check.

Sharon Doubell - it looks like Cawley’s FMG Medlands is off a bit on their article:

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/RUSSIA,%20Rurik.htm

IAROSLAV Romanovich, son of ROMAN Olegovich Grand Prince of Riazan & his wife Anastasia --- (-1299). Prince of Pronsk 1270-94. Grand Prince of Riazan 1294. m FEDORA Daniilovna, [746][daughter of DANIEL Aleksandrovich Prince of Moscow & his wife Maria ---].

Iaroslav & his wife had two children:
1. IVAN Iaroslavich (-murdered 1327). Prince of Pronsk 1294-1308. Grand Prince of Riazan. m VASILISA, daughter of ---. Ivan & his wife had one child:

  • a) IVAN Ivanovich "Korotopol" (-murdered 1343). Grand Prince of Riazan 1327-1342.

2. MIKHAIL Iaroslavich (-1303). Prince of Pronsk. m ---. The name of Mikhail´s wife is not known. Mikhail & his wife had one child:

  • a) ALEKSANDR Mikhailovich (-murdered 1340). Prince of Pronsk. m ---. The name of Aleksandr´s wife is not known. Aleksandr & his wife had three children:
    • i) IVAN Aleksandrovich (-1351). He succeeded in 1344 as Prince of Riazan. m ---. The name of Ivan´s wife is not known. Ivan & his wife had [three] children:
      • (a) [SOFIA Ivanovna (-1364). m VSEVOLOD Aleksandrovich Prince of Kholm, son of ALEKSANDR Mikhailovich "the Fugitive" Prince of Tver, Grand Prince of Vladimir & his wife Anastasia of Galich (after 1327-1364). He succeeded his uncle in 1346 as Prince of Tver, but was expelled in 1348.]
      • (b) OLEG Ivanovich (-5 Jul 1402). He succeeded his father in 1351 as Prince of Riazan. - see below.
      • (c) ANASTASIA Ivanovna . m (1371) SALACHMIR, Tartar. Christened IVAN Miroslavich.
    • ii) IAROSLAV DMITRY Aleksandrovich (-1344). Prince of Pronsk 1342. Grand Prince of Riazan. - see below, Part B. PRINCES of PRONSK.
    • iii) VASILY Aleksandrovich (-1350). Prince of Riazan (1344-50). m ---. The name of Vasily´s wife is not known. Vasily & his wife had one child:
      • (a) VLADIMIR Vasilievich (-1373). m ---. The name of Vladimir´s wife is not known. Vladimir & his wife had one child:
        • (1) IOANN Vasilievich (-1409).

Also Sharon Doubell - check your path.

I’m a lot closer than I expected.

prince Ivan Aleksandrovich of Riazan' is your 10th cousin 19 times removed. https://www.geni.com/path/Erica-Howton+is+related+to+prince-Ivan-of-Riazan?from=363677820350011581&path_type=blood&to=6000000184675728869

Through Anna of Kiev, Queen Consort of the Franks

Thank you for this discussion.

@Alexander Eliseev
@Андрей Николаевич Красильников
We're addressing the famous Korotopol issue...
Надеюсь, добьём эту проблему, наконец, теперь.

I see Alexander attached one of the proofs here: https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000081108494821

In addition, as mentioned above, since 1850-s the issue was solved in fact, as a new document was found where the Prince Oleg very clearly says who is his father (in a donation to a monastery). It's on the official Russian archives website, here: грамотуhttp://rgada.info/kueh/index2.php?str=281_1_9821
That's why Durasov (mentioned above), in 1908, or Pchelov in all his works published over the last 20 years (for instance, his very important book "Riurikids. History and genealogy", Moscow, 2018) always mention this line correct line:
Yaroslav / Mikhail / Alexander (the victim) / Ivan / Oleg and Anastasia
instead of the wrong one:
Yaroslav / Ivan / Ivan Korotopol (the killer) / Oleg and Anastasia.
I mean, it's not like having 2 different versions both having strong arguments and convincing elements (like I have among some of my ancestors' families, where in remote times sometimes there is uncertainty and 2 or more versions), but an OLD ONE (made in XVIth century by Moscow official court genealogists, some 2-2.5 centuries after the lives of the concerned persons), proved to be WRONG.
For clarity sake as some may be unaware: in XII-XVI centuries on the current Russian territory there were about 15 independent or sometimes vassal principalities. The Moscow Principality progressively managed to take control of everything else, until 1547 when the Russian Tsardom (=Empire, more or less) was proclaimed by Ivan the Terrible.
Riazan principality was annexed in 1521, and Moscow genealogists simply were not really aware in-depth of the genealogy in the then independent principality 2 centuries earlier. And as there were two Riazan princes Ivan, they attributed Oleg and Anastasia to the wrong one. (Who happened to be the murderer of their real grand-father!).

Erica Howton, it's crazy that in the article you posted above Oleg and Anastasia are shown CORRECTLY, but as for Sophia, the daughter of the murderer Ivan Korotopol is now shown as their sister again, what she was not :). I.e. it is only partly correct.
Oleg married his only sister Anastasia to a Tatar prince in 1372, they were my 18th great grandfather and grandmother, and they had no other brother/sister ever mentioned. Sophia was a cousin.

Has this been resolved?

Ivan Aleksandrovich was the Grand Prince of Ryazan, who ruled after the expulsion of Ivan Korotopol from Pereyaslavl-Ryazansky by Yaroslav Alexandrovich Pronsky in 1342, or in any case since the death in 1344 of Yaroslav Alexandrovich (in Pronsk).

“Father: Prince of Ryazan Alexander Yaroslavich or Prince of Pronsky Alexander Mikhailovich.”

princess Sofia Ioannovna Shows correctly in Geni.

Yes, indeed Cawley got Sofia of Ryazan wrong at https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/RUSSIA,%20Rurik.htm

Perhaps we can get it corrected, as MedLands is an excellent site for medieval genealogy.

Can the Russian about for Ioann Korotopol, prince of Pronsk & Ryazan be edited now please? I fixed the English (but didn’t add citations).

Has this been resolved? // YES, now everything is fine, thank you very much, really.

Can the Russian about for Иоанн Коротопол, кн. Рязанский be edited now please // done!

Erica Howton Anastasia Ivanovna is my 10th cousin 16 times removed.

Did I trigger all of this? >.<
:D

You did for me, anyway. And a very happy outcome. So many thanks for the Christmas gift to Geni.

Anastasia Ivanovna is your 9th cousin 14 times removed.
Anna of Kiev, Queen Consort of the Franks is your 26th great grandmother.
Sofia of Ryazan is your 9th cousin 14 times removed.
Oleg, Grand Prince of Ryazan is your 9th cousin 14 times removed.
Prince of Pronsk Alexander is your 8th cousin 15 times removed.
Ioann Korotopol, prince of Pronsk & Ryazan is your 8th cousin 15 times removed.
prince Ivan Aleksandrovich of Riazan' is your 8th cousin 15 times removed.

11th cousin 18 time’s removed

Thank you Erica for taking care of this. Previous discussion on this subject is here: https://www.geni.com/discussions/259861

I highlighted profiles that need their location in the tree verified with three question marks: ???

It was an Interesting project for me, so thank you for allowing me to help.

Private User, in fact the discussion you referred to was not "previous", but posterior to this one. Thanks to Erica Howton we could solve the main issue (wrong attribution of the Prince Oleg and the Princess Anastasia), so now the correct father is shown on Geni. A problem remains though as for the next generation, as per discussion in another thread. I'll have to reactivate it unfortunately because the problem is still there, whereas yourself wanted to make it conform to different trees that Alexander Eliseev posted already some months ago and that YOURSELF consider as being the best source (Durasov). I remind that also Ilovayski (the main Riazan Principality classical historian), and, more importantly, Ptchelov (who is for me 100 times more authoritative because acting 100 years later than Durasov and a professional well recognised historian) ALL concord here as for the father of the prince Ioann Alexandrovitch... So definitely we MUST correct the content on Geni (that only curators may modify as you blocked the concerned profiles, so I can't intervene).

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