Вел. кн. Иван Александрович Рязанский - The currently shown father is not correct!

Да! Я считаю Василия Дурасова одним из наиболее компетентных генеалогов конца 19 - начала 20 веков, поэтому опубликовал на сайте составленную им родословную схему Рязанских князей! К сожалению, я не имею технической возможности внести соответствующие исправления!

Только куратор может. Надеюсь, Private User найдёт вскорости время для этого.

Да, это именно эта схема, из Дурасова. Но у Пчелова (ВЕКОМ ПОЗЖЕ) ровно та же. Уже с Иловайского (1858-ой) НЕЛЬЗЯ ставить старую, опровергнутую, версию. Правильный отец у кн. Ивана Александровича Пронского - Alexander Mikhailovich, prince of Pronsk

Т.е. цепочка верная такая:
Иван Александрович
Александр Михайлович
Михаил Ярославич
Ярослав Романович

А сейчас стоит:
Иван Александрович
Александр Ярославич
Ярослав Романович

ПРОПУЩЕНО ОДНО ПОКОЛЕНИЕ! ONE GENERATION IS LACKING!

Вел. кн. Иван Александрович Рязанский is your 8th cousin 15 times removed.
Mikhail Yaroslavich, prince of Pronsk is your 7th cousin 16 times removed.
Alexander, prince of Pronsk is your 8th cousin 15 times removed.

Can the curator act in order to correct the mistake and include the lacking generation as explained above?

Private User, you've created strangely NEW profiles for Oleg and Anastasia of Ryazan (whereas they are on Geni since 2009), and a new profile for their father Ivan, whom you linked to the correct father (Alexander Mikh.), but what was the point creating 3 already existing profiles?
What should instead be done, that's link THIS profile (Ivan Alexandrovitch) to his correct father Alexander Mikhailovich, prince of Pronsk

Thank you,
LG

Private User,

As of today, the main issue is not solved yet.
Ivan Aleksandrovich, Grand Prince of Ryazan is shown as son of his UNCLE in fact.
His real father was as per all authoritative Rurik genealogists, Alexander Mikhailovich, prince of Pronsk
That's ALSO put black on white by Durasov to whom YOU refer yourself!
And more importantly, that's what we find in Pchelov's much more recent publications, but also in Ilovayski works (the most prominent historian on the Principality of Ryazan).
PLEASE CORRECT THIS.

"There is confusion in sources about Ivan Aleksandrovich of Ryazan"

No, in fact there is no confusion.
The "son of Alexander Yaroslavich" whom you mention (https://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000184675728869) simply didn't exist. Cf. the tree by Durasov that you refer to!

"Russian Wiki has two fathers listed, as there is confusion in historical sources"

Sincerely, to begin with, Wikipedia definitely CAN'T be used as source. You refer to the article of Wiki that MYSELF corrected a lot some 2-3 months ago, it's ridiculous in fact. The only SERIOUS sources are those from academic research, and it's a matter of fact that all Rurik genealogists agree now on this one. You refer yourself to Durasov, so please be consistent and correct as per his tree.
(NB: as Ilovayski and Pchelov both mentioned in their works, the Ryazan branch of the Rurik dynasty indeed is the least known and there are indeed dubious parts of it, etc., but IN THE CURRENT STATE OF THE HISTORICAL KNOWLEDGE we have to put as father of Oleg and Anastasia of Ryazan, Ivan Alexandrovitch, son of Alexandre Mikhailovich, son of Mikhail Yaroslavich. Absolutely no choice, unless you decide to dispute all publications on the question since 1850!

"If you read this" : of course I did, I am among the authors of the page you refer to! lol.

As the bottom line:
1)
Ivan Aleksandrovich, Grand Prince of Ryazan should have for father Alexander Mikhailovich, prince of Pronsk
2) the three duplicates that you created:
prince Ioann Aleksandrovich of Ryazan
Oleg Ioannovich, prince of Ryazan
Anastasia Ioannovna, princess of Ryazan
should be erased or merged with the existing profiles created for them already 15 years ago:
Ivan Aleksandrovich, Grand Prince of Ryazan
Oleg Ivanovich, Grand Prince of Ryazan
Anastasia Ivanovna
3) prince Alexander ??? Yaroslavich of Ryazan and Gleb ??? Yaroslavich : both should disappear from Geni as well. You can't find them in any of the 3 sources here (Durasov, Ilovayski, Pchelov).
In addition, this Gleb is currently shown on Geni as father of Fedor Glebovitch, but here it can't be as Fedor Glebovich is in fact grand-son of Vassily Yaroslavich (from Vladimir, COMPLETELY ANOTHER BRANCH!), not of Yaroslav Romanovich.

(YES the genealogu of Rurik descendants is not easy, but still we have to make all of them appear on Geni as per current state of the scientific historic research! You are the curator for most of these profiles, please either unblock the relevant profiles and I'll make the changes as per above, or proceed yourself if you prefer).

Бодался телёнок с дубом.

Thank you, Viktorija, for bringing the discussion back to the scientific channel. Under such circumstances I stop sarcastic remarks and ask you to take into account the opinion of modern science, reflected in the Great Russian Encyclopedia:
В правление кн. Ярослава Романовича (1294–99) Пронск являлся столицей всего Рязанского кн-ва. В 1-й пол. 14 в. П. к. вновь обособилось под властью его внука Александра Михайловича (ум. 1340), которому наследовал сын Ярослав-Дмитрий Александрович (ум. 1344), получивший в 1342 ярлык на всё Рязанское кн-во. После его смерти П. к. удержал за собой его сын кн. Владимир (не позднее 1365 – не позднее 1.3.1373), затем там правили Даниил Владимирович (не позднее 1.3.1373 – не ранее 1380), Иван Владимирович (между 1380 и 1407 – ок. 1430; от него происходил угасший в кон. 17 в. род князей Пронских) и Фёдор Иванович (ок. 1430 – между 1447 и 1456). С 1370-х гг. правители П. к. титуловались «великими князьями» в документах и начали чеканку собств. денег (во 2-й пол. 1380-х гг. анонимные надчеканы на джучидских монетах с Ф-образной пронской тамгой, затем монеты с весовой нормой 1,32–1,38 г, с круговыми надписями – «печать князя», «печать князя велик» и «княжа Ивана»). Владимир Ярославич (Дмитриевич) и Иван Владимирович непродолжит. время занимали рязанский стол (в дек. 1371 – нач. 1372; 1408).

А у меня Большая Советская Энциклопедия есть в оригинале, от тестя досталась!
Может в ней посмотреть? Или Большую Российскую Энциклопедию прикупить?
Боюсь, что тоже скоро устареет!

Большая российская энциклопедия 2004–2017, научно:
ХЕРСО́Н, город в Российской Федерации (с 30.9.2022), адм. центр Хер­сон­ской обл. (до 30.9.2022 – на Украине); сведения в статье приведены на 2020 г. Население 287,0 тыс. чел. (2019, оцен­ка), в пре­де­лах гор. аг­ло­ме­ра­ции ок. 450 тыс. чел. Рас­по­ло­жен на При­чер­но­мор­ской низ­мен­но­сти, на пра­вом бе­ре­гу р. Днепр, не­да­ле­ко от мес­та её впа­де­ния в Днеп­ров­ский ли­ман Чёр­но­го мо­ря. Транс­порт­ный узел. Порт. Ме­ж­ду­нар. аэ­ро­порт.

ЗАПОРО́ЖЬЕ, город в Российской Федерации (с 30.9.2022), адм. центр Запорожской области (до 30.9.2022 – на Украине); сведения в статье приведены на 2020 г. Нас. 731,9 тыс. чел. (2020; 815,3 тыс. чел. в 2001; 883,9 тыс. чел. в 1989; 658,0 тыс. чел. в 1970; 449,0 тыс. чел. в 1959; 289,2 тыс. чел. в 1939). Образует агломерацию с населением ок. 1,0 млн. чел. Рас­по­ло­жен на р. Днепр. Круп­ный узел же­лез­ных и ав­то­мо­биль­ных до­рог. Реч­ной порт (при­ни­ма­ет су­да ти­па «ре­ка – мо­ре»). Ме­ж­ду­нар. аэ­ро­порт.

Александр Евгеньевич, курс теории и практики редактирования помните? Вы же были отличником в университете.

Андрей Николаевич! У меня скептическое отношение к политизированным изданиям и к РАН в целом!

Виктория, Вы цитируете: "Также Владимир Ярославич Пронский в одной из летописей назван зятем Олега Ивановича, что невозможно, если бы они были двоюродными братьями".
Почему это невозможно?

Разумеется, возможно! Близкородственные и ранние браки практиковались повсеместно!

Private User

I see nothing has changed since my message written above (on 2nd of February).
On purpose, knowing that you are busy and because you asked me to be patient, I didn't write anything for 5 weeks.
But still, we have the same problem.

1) Ivan Aleksandrovich, Grand Prince of Ryazan is still shown as son of his UNCLE in fact.
His real father was as per all authoritative Rurik genealogists, Alexander Mikhailovich, prince of Pronsk
Please correct that.
It fully matches with the tree that Alexander Eliseev posted, from the author whom yourself said to be the main source for you!

(And more importantly, that's what we find in Pchelov's much more recent publications, but also in Ilovayski works (the most prominent historian on the Principality of Ryazan).
PLEASE CORRECT THIS.

2) the three duplicates that you created:
князь Иоанн Александрович Рязанский
Олег Иванович, князь Рязанский
Анастасия Ивановна, княжна Рязанская
should be erased or merged with the existing profiles created for them already 15 years ago:
Иван Александрович, Великий Князь Рязанский
Олeг Иванович, Великий Князь Рязанский
Анастасия Ивановна
3) князь Александр Ярославич Рязанский and Глеб Ярославич : both should disappear from Geni as well. You can't find them in any of the 3 sources here (Durasov, Ilovayski, Pchelov).
In addition, this Gleb is currently shown on Geni as father of Fedor Glebovitch, but here it can't be as Fedor Glebovich is in fact grand-son of Vassily Yaroslavich (from Vladimir, COMPLETELY ANOTHER BRANCH!), not of Yaroslav Romanovich.

(YES the genealogu of Rurik descendants is not easy, but still we have to make all of them appear on Geni as per current state of the scientific historic research! You are the curator for most of these profiles, please either unblock the relevant profiles and I'll make the changes as per above, or proceed yourself if you prefer).

"If this profile of Alexander ??? Yaroslavich is moved into Alexander Mikhailovich, and so will his children: Vasili, Anna, and Ivan.

And based on the Durasov scheme Alexander Mikhailovich had two sons: Ioann (Ivan) and Yaroslav-Dmitriy."

NO, Alexander Yaroslavich should NOT be merged with Alexander Mikhailovich! He simply didn't exist, as per the source itself you refer to, and more importantly, as by the much more authoritative source as of today: Pchelov.
We can not move these children that you mention.
Durasov and Pchelov agree and match: Mikhail Yaroslavich had one son, Alexander of Pronsk, who had two sons, Ivan and Yaroslav-Dmitry, period.

"1) Vasili, about him on Russian Wiki (I did not write this; this is the only source I could find for verification, do not put this on me), there are two possible fathers mentioned: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD_%D0%90%D0%BB...; : the link that you gave refers precisely to prince Ivan, my 19th great grand-father. Not to Vassily. (SOME historians though think that he simply had two names, Ivan and Vassily; otherwise maybe Vassily did exist separately; however that's not my point, all I want is to see Ivan Alex. to be linked to his real father).

As for Anna: yes it's sure she existed; but who was her father is unclear. That could be ANOTHER Alexander Yaroslavich (not mentioned by Durasov and Pchelov, but why not), i.e. a brother of Ivan and Mikhail ; that could be indeed Alexander Mikhailovich and therefore sister of Ivan Alexandrovich... Probably we'll never know. If it's technically easier for you, move Vassily and Anna along with Ivan. I personally do not really care, I just want Ivan to be linked to his real father, in order to avoid having wrong ancestors for me.

"Ivan - available information matches with the son Ioann Aleksandrovich, grandson of Mikhail. So moving this profile does not cause any problems" - so, please, do.

Private User

"Leo: I listed sources available online where ALEXANDER YAROSLAVICH is mentioned. This person most likely existed. We must establish the correct place for him in the Princes of Ryazan tree. Or is there a mistake in every source, and everywhere ALEXANDER MIKHAILOVICH should be listed instead?"

No, I think there is no really a "mistake", but rather a version. Yourself quoted supra:
"...Также Владимир Ярославич Пронский в одной из летописей назван зятем Олега Ивановича, что невозможно, если бы они были двоюродными братьями. Данное обстоятельство побудило историков предположить существование Александра Ярославича, который мог княжить в Рязани до Ивана (между 1306/1308 и 1320) или после Ивана (между 1327 и 1340)... - this is from Russsian Wiki".

I.e. as for these unquoted historians, he existed simply because it's unlikely that Vladimir Yar. would be son-in-law of Oleg if they were direct cousins (yes, true). But: the fact that Vlad. Yar. was son-in-law in fact is only mentioned by Nikon chronicle, written TWO CENTURIES LATER. Taking into account the fact that Moscow chronicles' authors were notoriously unaware of the complicacies in Riazan princes genealogy (hence also the mistake as for Oleg and Anastasia father, which was nevertheless officially included in the Russian State genealogical registers), I doubt that we can conclude that a prince existed simply because of ONE source. Wikipedia is more prudent, saying for Vladimir of Pronsk on https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BC%... as follows:
"Жена: предположительно, дочь Великого князя Рязанского Олега Ивановича (в этом случае отец Олега Иван Александрович не мог быть братом Ярослава Александровича, отца Владимира)". Yes, "предположительно", "supposedly".

This complicated question is also discussed on
https://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%91%D0%A1/%D0%92%D0%A2/%D0%...

Anyway, NB, Durasov (table X) and Pchelov (2nd edition of his book on Rurikids, p. 575) do not mention Alexander Yaroslavich.
My general conclusion about him is that:
- there is no direct proof of his existence,
- authoritative sources do not mention him,
- some historians think he existed, but it is a simple deduction and which is based on just one source which is not contemporary but 2 centuries posterior to the events.

Therefore I wouldn't include him (BUT it is good to mention him on Yaroslav page and on Vladimir of Pronsk pages, in About sections).

All this confusion is due to the scarcity of contemporary sources and the fact that most information officially approved at the court of Moscow was the creation of authors speaking about events that took 2 centuries earlier and in another principality. So like often in genealogy, we are obliged to choose. My choice (not to include Alexander Yar.) is due to the fact that I always privilege most recent university research (and here Ilovayski, Durasov and Pchelov agree) and I privilege direct contemporary mentions to deductions/suppositions (and indeed there has never been any mention of Alexander Yar.).

Yes it's a nightmare :(

"It seems that Mikhail Yaroslavich died within a few years after his father Yaroslav; he might not be known much for his achievements. I can't find information about Mikhail Yaroslavich's life.

... Наличие у Ивана родного брата Михаила выводится из упоминания такового в одной из грамот XV века, из упоминания Ярославичей летописью во множественном числе под 1300 годов и из того, что летописи называют Ивана Ивановича Коротопола и Александра Михайловича Пронского братьями (двоюродными). Александр был убит Иваном, когда самостоятельно вёз дань в Орду в 1340 году, так что во всяком случае к этому времени стало оправданным наименование и пронских князей великими... - this is also from Russian Wiki.

So it seems Mikhail was only sparsely mentioned as a brother of Ivan Yaroslavich and his son as a cousin."

Here again, I prefer to follow Ilovayski, Durasov and Pchelov who agree...

I mean, I propose to use (like yourself suggested) the tree by Durasov (and by Pchelov, p. 575, that I shall add here), otherwise we shall break our brains trying to clarify all that.

Cf. https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000192622505854 and https://www.geni.com/photo/view?album_type=photos_of_me&id=6000...