Pepin of Landen - wrong image in total blocked MP profile

Livio Scremin - wrong image removed. I’m not crazy about the one I just selected as front image, but it’s clearly labeled, if there’s a better option, please advise by image link.

Private User - from his profile:

Ancestry Unknown - although Wikipedia claims Carloman as his father, according to the Chronicle of Fredegar. The Chronicle of Fredegar is a fascinating document, but internal evidence and comparison to surviving sources shows it is Carolingian propaganda, written with a conscious purpose of glorifying (and improving) their ancestry. It contains many "mistakes" and many impossibilities.

Above my pay grade.

For me, when it comes to medieval documents, I would look for modern historical interpretations; and even a step further, as historians can (and should) debate in a way genealogists do not.

It’s taken me a while to figure out how to do this in Geni, and it applies all over the tree. We construct as best we know, as we can do (always a work in progress), on the most solid evidence we can, following the precepts of the Genealogical Proof Standard.

https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Genealogical_Proof_Standard

And we use hyperlinks within profile to “jump to” what’s speculative, uncertain, disproved, debated, etc.

So to re examine “this” parentage, I would be most interested in how https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Settipani interprets (if he covers him). And even then, we might separate his re constructions from what the Geni tree would show.

Try “Les ancêtres de Charlemagne” and see what he’s got.

https://books.google.com/books?id=IFQ8DwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#...

Re Xantenses - That's interesting and worth pursuing. From where do you get that quote? "The Annales Xantenses record the death in 647 of "Pippinus filius Karlomanni, maior domus Lotharii"?

Can you post the link to where you're seeing that?

It's interesting, but not definitive, that Cawley uses Xantenses as a source for his death, but chooses to ignore that bit about his birth parent in particular:
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKSMaiordomi.htm#_Toc359686213, and that Wikipedia doesn't cite it either: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepin_of_Landen.

Let's verify it's existence, and then - as Erica says - look at the scholarly debate around this. Perhaps, as you say - it's now commonly accepted amongst medievalists.

Private User is sure to be of help too.

Here’s a quote in German:

http://www.stanny-van-grasdorff.be/webdesign/kwartierstaat.htm

Der illuster vir Hausmeier Pippin nimmt die Kommendation des Bischofs Duban, Abt des Klosters Honau für sich und den Besitz seines Klosters an, nimmt Duban unter seinen Schutz und sichert den Besitz des Klosters, mit dem es unter dem Herzog Adelbert und danach unter Pippins Vater Karl (Martell) ausgestattet wurde. (747?-751) (Arnulfinger Urkunden)

" illuster vir Pippinus maior domus.........et postea sub meo genitore Karolo quondam fuit vistita"

---

Google translate

The illuster vir Hausmeier Pippin accepts the commendation of Bishop Duban, abbot of the Honau monastery for himself and the property of his monastery, takes Duban under his protection and secures the property of the monastery, with which it was under Duke Adelbert and then under Pippin's father Karl (Martell) was equipped. (747?-751) (Arnulfinger documents)

"that man Pippinus was the elder of the house.........and afterwards it was once clothed under my father Charles"

From where does the quote come? It's different to Ulf's.

Trying again.

https://www-stanny--van--grasdorff-be.translate.goog/webdesign/kwar...

Pedigree of Margaretha van Schonevelde gen. v. Grasdorp

1073744130 Pippin van Landen, born about 585. Pippin died in 640, aged about 55.
Note to Pippin: Pippin "The Elder" of Lands

Major Domus(=Mayor of the Court) of Austrasia

He was loved by the Austrasians "for his justice and goodness" (Fredegar, IV, 85, MGH SS rer Merov II, p. 164)

It death in 647 of "Pippinus filius Karlomanni, maior domus Lotharii" (Annales Xantenses 650, MGH SS II, p. 219)

Pepin the Elder of the Landen, b. about 575, d. 640, mayor of Austrasia, he was first mentioned in the chronicle of Frédégaire as one of the nobles who persuaded Clotaire II to seize Brunhilde in 613, Clotaire entrusted him with the education of Dagobert, in 624 he was appointed mayor.

He effectively supported Dagobert when Clotaire refused to give his son all power in Austrasia, but in practice that power already lay with Dagobert, acting for Dagobert, Pippin had an important Agilolfinger arrest Chrodoald for tax debt, Chrodoald managed to flee and asked Clotaire for the benefit of to intervene, Dagobert promised to spare Chrodoald, but he was immediately executed upon his return, Pepin, however, fell into disgrace some time after St. Arnulf and was replaced in the consultative meeting by Cunibert, bishop of Cologne, in 632 the administration of Austrasia was entrusted to duke Adalgisel and said Cunibert,relieved of both important functions, however, Pepin remained at court and although he had little influence during this period, he continued to hold the title mayor of the palace and resumed the power belonging to that position after the death of Dagobert under his son Sigebert III, successor to his father in Australia.

1. Caroli Magni Progenies Neustadt an der Aisch, 1977. , Siegfried Rosch, Reference: 52
2. Quarters Greidanus-Jaeger in Stamreeksen 1994, The Hague., Mr. GJJ van Wimersma Greidanus, Reference: 754
3. Roderick W. Stuart, Royalty for Commoners: The Complete Lineage of John of Gaunt, Son of Edward III, Kings of England, and Queen Philippa (.: ., 3rd Ed., 1998) , 260-46
4. Christian Settipani & Patrick van Kerrebrouck, La Prehistoire des Capetiens 481-987, Premiere partie: Merovingians, Carolingians et Robertiens (Villeneuve d´Ascq: Editions Christian, 1993), pg. 153, circa 575.
5. Léon van der Essen, editor, Deux Mille Ans D´Histoire (163, Rue du Trone, Bruxelles: Les Presses de Belgique, 1946), Gen Table I.
6. WKvIsenburg: Europ"aische Stammtafeln, Band I, Tafel 2. Marburg, 1953 (1965)
7. D.Schwennicke: Europ"aische Stammtafeln, I1, Tafeln 3. Marburg, 1998, ESNF 1.1 Tafel 3 1998
He married
1073744131 Itte van Nivelles, born in 592. Itte died in 652 in Nivelles , aged 59 or 60.
Note about Itte: Itte/Idoberge van Nivelles

Holy, Catholic memorial day May 8.

"mattera ipsius [Pippini]…virgo Domino consecrate Geretrudis" and that she founded the monastery "in loco…Nivella cum genitrice sua Itaberga" (Annales Mettenses 687, MGH SS I, p. 316)

Itta relicta Pippini" the abbey of Nivelles in 650. (Annales Xantenses 650, MGH SS II, p. 219)

The death in 657 or "Beata Itta mater sancte Gerthrudis" (Annales Xantenses 657, MGH SS II, p. 220)

Itte/Idoberge, b. 592, d. 8 May 652, abbess of Nivelles, she had three children by Pepin the Elder, Grimoald, who would later hold his father's office, Begga and Gertrude, later abbess of Nivelles, after her husband's death she devoted herself with her youngest daughter of the church, met St. Amand in 647 who advised her to found a monastery, whereupon Itte founded the monastery of Nivelles which was strongly influenced by the Irish school, her daughter became her immediate successor in 652.

1. Caroli Magni Progenies Neustadt an der Aisch, 1977. , Siegfried Rosch, Reference: 52
2. Christian Settipani & Patrick van Kerrebrouck, La Prehistoire des Capetiens 481-987, Premiere partie: Merovingians, Carolingians et Robertiens (Villeneuve d'Ascq: Editions Christian, 1993 ), pg. 153.
3. Various Monumenta Germaniae Historica (Leipzig: Verlag Karl W. Hiersemann, 1923-1925), pg. 219, from Annales Xantensis.
4. D.Schwennicke: Europ"aische Stammtafeln, I1, Tafeln 3. Marburg, 1998, ESNF 1.1 Tafel 3 1998
5. C.Weigelt: Die Grafen von Hochberg vom F"urstenstein. Ein Beitrag zur vaterl"andischen Culturgeschichte. Breslau, 1896

OK, my quote earlier was Pippin the Short. Sorry!

Generation 27 (grandparents)

67109008 Pippin de Korte (img. 1), born in 714. Pippin died on 24 September 768 in St.Denis , aged 53 or 54.
Note about Pippin: Pippin III the Short of the Franks, King of the Franks

"Karlomannum…et Pippinum atque Grifonem" the 3 sons of "Karlus maior domus" (Annales Einhardi 741, MGH SS I, p. 135)

Der Hausmeier Karlmann ( illustrious), Sohn des verstorbenen Karl, entscheidet mit seinen Großen auf einer Gerichtssitzung über einen Streit zwischen dem Abt Anglinus des Klosters Stavelot/Malmedy und sich selbst über die villa Lierneux mit Zubehör, die Pippin, sein Großvater, dem Kloster urkundlich gifts hatte. Pippins dM Urkunde wird vorgelegt und für really befunden.Das Kloster erhält den Besitz durch Urteilsspruch zurück. Urteiler sind four Bischöfe, ein Abt und der Pfalzgraf Hugbert. Duna villa (Düren) 747 August 15 (Mariä Himmelfahrt) (Arnulfinger Urkunden)
"Illuster Karlemannus maior domus, filius Karoli quondam...........quod domnus et avus noster Pipinus"

Hey, y’all. Thanks for linking me in; lovely mess of stuff here.

I can’t answer the question of why Xanteses isn’t a source for Peppin;s father, when it seems to be pretty clear about it.

I can say that the Annals Xanteses, though considered reliable, are a compilation of earlier annals, and so there may be minefields.

But! Look what I found for you!

A 2013 dissertation from the Netherlands — https://pure.uva.nl/ws/files/1547291/129131_thesis.pdf

Oh, what a lovely piece of writing. I've uploaded it. THank you.

Ulf, I've found that original quote, and if Anne confirms that Xanteses is generally reliable, then I'm adding Carloman of Landen as father. I also see that I was wrong, and Cawley does site that too. Thankyou for spotting.

• cite