Bethóc ingen Maíl Coluim meic Cináeda - Is this article accurate?

Noël Johnston Writes:

I found this article and am wondering if it is accurate or not. If it is, is certainly adds to our knowledge of Bethoc, as well as Crinan

https://www.robertson.org/OOTC_Crinan_Abbot_of_Dunkeld.html

I am doubtful.

First, any treatise that begins with "We know from our clan history books" is suspect. What books? Are they the ones cited, or others? It seems we actually know very little about Bethoc.

As to the ascribed second marriage, Wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beth%C3%B3c ) makes Sigurd the husband of Bethoc's sister, Olith. That article cites Mael Coluim III, by Neil McGuigan, which I just happen to be currently reading. But he does not mention Sigurd or Olith, and spends very little time on Bethoc. He only lists the marriage to Crinan.

Lastly, Cawley only shows one marriage for Bethoc ( https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm#BethocMCrinanMormaerd... )

So, I am skeptical

The article doesn’t cite clan histories.

Article based on:

• "Macbeth" from Heroes and Warriors Series by Bob Stewart, 1988.
• "King Hereafter" by Dorothy Dunnett, 1982.
• "History of Scotland" by J.D. Mackie, 1978.
• "St. Margaret" by Alan J. Wilson, 2001.

The first one was written in 1899 (not a typo). The second is historical fiction. The third was originally printed in 1969. The last, is the most current at 1993. So not much there from what I can see. The last two might be promising, particularly if we knew the pages that the article was referencing.

Using Dorothy Dunnett's sketichily researche book of fiction as a reference is worrying.

The story of this article itself is well told, but quite apparantly the author is no historian.

A really fun little piece to research, though. I find this area fascinating....

We know from our clan history books, that from Crinan’s marriage to Bethoc, daughter of Malcolm II, the "Ard Righ" or high king of Alba, their son Duncan was born in 1007.

We actually don't have sources I know of for when Duncan was born

Later for political alliance reasons, King Malcolm II had Bethoc divorce Crinan and remarried her to earl Sigurd II of Orkney

We don't know this was Bethoc at all

On earl Sigurd’s death in 1014, she was married a third time to earl Finlaech of Moray.

Again, we don't know this was Bethoc at all.

This version would make Duncan, Macbeth and Thorfinn all half brothers. At the very least Holinshed (on whom Shakespeare draws) would have pointed out that Macbeth was killing his brother, not his cousin, if this had been known.

If I recall, John of Fordun think Bethoc is the only daughter - so it might be based on that.

The problem is that this version relies on an (undocumeted) divorce from Crinan, the highly influential Abthane of Dule - who is killed by Macbeth's army, it seems. Why would Malcolm broker this divorce so his daughter could remarry a Mormaer of Moray? Isn;t is more likely that he had other daughters?

There is a dramatic story of a fight to the death between brothers, that included the father of one of them that could be extrapolated from this .... hmm..

I am extremely disturbed to see an article with such problematic sources being written by a member of the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland.

The Macbeth book, from the Heroes and Warriors Series, is a popular text, not a scholarly one, written by R. J. Stewart, who is mostly known for his works on Celtic magic and mythology.

Dunnett’s “King Hereafter” is fiction which centers on the notion that Macbeth and Earl Thorfinn are the same person.

J.D. Mackie was a renowned and solid historian, and his History of Scotland would be an excellent secondary source, except it was first printed in 1964 and there have been LOTS of excellent histories of Scotland since then, so why. Why.

The St. Margaret biography is from an academic press, though not a university press, if one is getting really picky, which I sorta start getting at about this point, and it looks therefore not bad; it’s out of print, and there have been other scholarly biographies of Margaret since then, I can’t find evidence of the citations it uses, so I can’t judge that. The author has also written a biography of James MacGregor, published by the University of Edinburgh. Found a review of the St. Margaret biography, in an academic journal, which was pretty good. So I’m probably least annoyed by this source. However, what the hell it has to do with the article is unclear to me (this is why citations need footnotes linking them to the text).

No.

Just no.

The 1027 meeting with Canute about Crinan must be documented somewhere?

the abbacy of Dunkeld, vested in him [Crinan] on behalf of Malcolm’s daughter Bethoc, should not be granted away on her recent death, but that lord Crinan should continue to enjoy its rights and its privileges together with the duty to protect and foster this abbey for life.

Crínán of Dunkeld

Whether Crinan's right to the abbacy of Dunkeld is conferred by Malcolm or predates his marriage to Bethoc is indeed an interesting thought. As is Crinan's connection to Cnut.

Sharon Doubell --

the meeting is well chronicled but I'm having trouble finding the Crinan detail -- MUCH of what would be useful is inaccessible, being either only in snippet form or behind annoyingly large paywall --

The Anglo Saxon Chronicle (MSS D, E, and F) dates the meeting at 1031, but the Burgundian chronicler Rodulfus Glaber mentions a connection to Richard, Duke of Normandy, who died in 1027, so that date would make more sense. Wikipedia says you can find that entry in Early Sources of Scottish History, edited by Alan Anderson.

Here's the Anglo Saxon Chronicle, nicely presented in translation: https://www.google.com/books/edition/Scottish_Annals_from_English_C... -- the footnotes give more details as to other sources

Interestingly, the Chronicle from the Isle of Man doesn't mention it -- https://www.google.com/books/edition/Antiquitates_Celto_Normannicae...

Not in the Annals of Ulster -- https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/ecco/004890131.0001.002/1:13?rgn=div1;...

And also interestingly, though the Irish Annals say that the Abbey of Dunkeld was burned in 1027, it continues to show up as a place for quite some time -- see https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm#_Toc100815205 -- so it couldn't have burned to the ground.

at any rate.

some stuff I found.

"In the 11th century, the Celtic Abbacy of Dunkeld became an appanage of the Crown and subsequently descended to the Earls of Fife."https://www.stewartsociety.org/history-of-the-stewarts.cfm?section=...

Thank you Anne. It's Cnut's forcing Malcolm to submit to him, isn't it? There must be some way of finding records of what goes down about the important Abbacy of Dunkeld. I've just spent an hour translating a download of Mylin's Vitae Dunkeldensis ecclesiae episcoporum - to find that it skips this period altogether :-/

Yep. I've got no reason to think that provisions about Dunkeld weren't part of the agreements, but I can't see where that shows up.

It would be, though, not in a chronicle -- or we would be seeing it -- but in one of the legal charters.

Máel Coluim Mac Cináeda, Rí na h'Alba
Cnut the Great, king of Denmark, England, Norway

Findláech mac Ruaidrí, thane of Angus, Mormaer of Moray
Macbeth, King of Scots
Donada ingen Maíl Coluim meic Cináeda, Princess of Scots

Sigurd "Digri/the Stout" Hlodvesson, Orkneyjarl
Thorfinn 'The Black' Sigurdsson, II Jarl of Orkney
Olith Maíl Coluim meic Cináeda

Yes, I was thinking that, and wondering how to see that. A puzzle, but an interesting one.
Maybe one of the managers of the profiles involved has better access than we do. Long shot, I know.

Helpful info in a JSTOR article I can't fully access stating that there are few early medieval charters re Dunkeld around, probably on account of things burning down in 1027. Like, entirely burning.

At any rate -

nothing here, annoyingly -- https://electricscotland.com/history/articles/earlyscottishcha00law...

and why is the agreement not in this dissertation -- https://research-repository.st-andrews.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/10023...

hmmmmm

Very interesting - thankyou.

I've found a reference to a Crinan nnamed as one of Knut's moneyers, but nothing much else of use.
A nice description of a stalemate between Cnut and Malcolm who meets him at Sirling - solved by a paper submission and not a real one - but no primary sources ;-/

It does, however, open some interesting questions on the role of Crinan.
If we can find the proof that Crinan had indeed aligned himself with Cnut in that treaty it opens up a whole new understanding of this little spot of Scottish nobility.

I'm just about to that point in McGuigan's book. I'll post what I find.

Thank you

Items form Neil McGuigan's book on Mael Coluim III.

Besides being abbot of Dunkeld, Crinan was also a theign. The problem with that is that the meaning of theign, from that era, is not precise, but it generally means a man who serves a higher authority. McGuigan provides many ideas as to who that could be, but there is nothing definite. In one chronical, Crinan is called seneschal of the Isles. But the chronicle is not specific as to which Isles, or as to the duties of a "seneschal."

But, as to abbot of Dunkeld, that would have been a very important position in itself, as Dunkeld was a primary abbey at that time, preceeding the importance of St Andrew. Again, several ideas are offered, i.e. Crinan may have been from a line of important clerics connected to a line of Irish kings, or may have been in the line of kings himself. McGuigan does state that Crinan was most likely not the abbot when he married Bethoc, unless the Celi De at Dunkeld had a separate abbot, as Celi De where required to cease "living with a wife."

McGuigan states that Bethoc probably had sisters, any of which could have provided a line for Malcolm II to promote a successor, and he doubts that Malcolm brokered the marriage of Bethoc and Crinan for that purpose.

As to Cnut's involvement with Crinan, there is no mention. McGuigan does cover the brokered peace bewtween Malcolm and Cnut, by Richard of Normandy, and that Cnut became God Father to Malcolm's infant son as part of that arrangement.

So, no easy solutions to be had. But, if you can get hold of a copy of the book, I recommend it, although it is not an easy read.

Private User That seems to be correct, although the first part of the book establishes that prior successions tended to alternate between cousin clans, not father to son.