Helena Komnene of Greece - Parentage Unknown

Started by Tamás Flinn Caldwell-Gilbert on Friday, March 24, 2023
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Helena, the widow of Yuri Dolgorukiy, grand prince of Kiev, moved to Constantinople after her husband's death. This has led some scholars to theorize that perhaps she was Byzantine. But there is no documentary evidence for this, and certainly no evidence to identify her as the daughter of Isaak Leo Komnenos, Sebastokrator of the Byzantine Empire

Here is what Medlands has to say:
"m secondly [HELENA] [Komnene], daughter of --- (-[1183]). Baumgarten cites one secondary source which discusses "the probability" that the second wife of Prince Iurii was of Byzantine origin, suggesting her possible name on a subsequent page[774]. Although the date of his second marriage is not known, the timing suggests that his wife may have belonged to the Komnenos family if she was indeed of Byzantine origin. Sturdza states that she was the daughter of Isaakios Komnenos cæsar, but the primary source on which this might be based has not yet been identified. She adopted the name OLGA in Russia."
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/RUSSIA,%20Rurik.htm#IuriiVladimirov...

I suggest that we cut the connection between Helena and Isaakios, since there is no real evidence behind this connection.

I politely suggest we don't cut the connection as there is not concrete evidence to the contrary.
Perhaps the people who made the connection in first place knew something we don't know.
After all Medlands is not the only author of the history of the world

Private User Unfortunately, that is not how this works. We need evidence for the connections existence, otherwise we cut. Arguing that since we do not have evidence against something, we must accept it as true, is a logical fallacy and not how we do genealogy here on Geni.

This is why I posted here in a discussion, to give the people who made the connection a chance to bring forward some evidence to support it.

Since we are in the region, we also need to take a look at the mother currently attached to Helene, Kata of Georgia

A medieval Georgian chronicle says that she married into the Byzantine Imperial family, but the name of her husband is not specified. See Kata of Georgia, daughter of king David IV the Builder, as wife of sebastokrator Isaakios Komnenos by Rafal Prinke for a discussion of the possible candidates. https://www.academia.edu/980121/Kata_of_Georgia_daughter_of_king_Da...

Basically, there are three candidates put forward by historians as the potential candidate for her husband. One option is Isaak Leo Komnenos, Sebastokrator of the Byzantine Empire the husband currently attached to her. Another option is Alexios Bryennios, the son of Anna Komnene, Historian and Princess of Byzantine Empire and the third is Alexios Komnenos, Co-Emperor of the Byzantine Empire

The issue with all three of these possibilities is that we do not have any sources for the identities of any of their wives. Which I guess is what makes them potential candidates. Historians and genealogists have simply looked for Byzantine royal men with unknown wives and posited them as potential candidates.

The source for this marriage comes from Life of David, King of Kings, a 12th-century Georgian chronicle.

"David made marriage alliances with the kings of the Greeks and
of Sirvan, giving them his daughters; he thus made helpful allies
for himself..."

"That same year he sent his daughter Kata to Greece to marry
(the son of) the Greek emperor. For he had previously sent his
first-born daughter T'amari to be queen of Sarvan, so that the two
luminaries—one in the east, the other in the west—might be stars
in the vault of heaven, taking from their father sunlike rays." (page 325 of Robert W. Thompson's Rewriting Caucasian History: The Medieval Armenian Adaptation of the Georgian Chronicles. The Original Georgian Texts and The Armenian Adaptation. Oxford: Clarendon Press (1996).)

The work is a hagiography of David IV, King of Georgia

For me, the language of the text, "so that the two luminaries—one in the east, the other in the west—might be stars in the vault of heaven, taking from their father sunlike rays," is clearly intended to extoll the virtues of King David. Given that there are no references in Byzantine texts to Kata, I would not be surprised if the anonymous author of The Life of David had invented Kata in an effort to depict David as a virtuous and wise monarch, who could balance the interests of the east and the west.

Helena Komnene of Greece is your 23rd great grandfather's 2nd wife.
Alexios Komnenos, Co-Emperor of the Byzantine Empire is your 24th great uncle.
Anna Komnene, Historian and Princess of Byzantine Empire is your 25th great aunt.
Isaak Leo Komnenos, Sebastokrator of the Byzantine Empire is your 25th great uncle.
David IV, King of Georgia is your 51st cousin 18 times removed.
Kata Irena of Georgia is your 52nd cousin 17 times removed.

Since it has been a couple of days and nobody has volunteered any sources to support the connections, I have made the cuts I detailed above and locked the relationships for the affected profiles so that these speculative connections do not return.

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