Jan Jurgens Kotzè, b3c5 - COETZEE AND KOTZE

Private User

4/2/2023 at 12:11 AM

The profile of Jan Jurgens Kotze (and that Y-DNA line) has two distinct Y-DNA results of which from https://www.familytreedna.com/public/CapeDutch?iframe=yresults one finds that the Y-DNA in South Africa are as follows:

COETZEE: R-M269

KOTZE: E-L117

This profile has both, and the result stems from a KOTZE who tested as a COETZEE. Private

It also seems the COETZEE Y-DNA has not yet been uploaded to Geni.

However, this has bothered me for such a long time that I have opened this discussion for others to also provide their inputs/assistance. My line of thoughts are 3-fold:

1. At the West Coast, most COETZEEs were baptised as KOTZEES or KOETZE(E) which might have led to this change in surname, particularly in cases where children were young when their parents became deceased.

2. There is a "problematic" COETZEE profile (will link here when I find it) which might have caused some COETZEEs to intentionally adopt to KOTZEs. (speculative).

3. There were a few Johannes Jacobues COETZEEs and KOTZEs living at the same time, a mistaken surname on the Geni tree could easily have occurred which renders the GENI tree incorrect, and that we need to correct via further research.

However, it is still clear to me that the R-M269 result from the KOTZE tester, should be propagated to the COETZEE SV, not the KOTZE SV via a correction on the Geni tree.

Sharon Doubell Private User

Regards
J

Private User

4/2/2023 at 12:12 AM

errata @ no 3... also Dirk COETZEEs and Dirk KOTZEs living the same time.

Sharon Doubell C

4/2/2023 at 12:40 AM

Johann Hansz Kotze and Dirk Coetzee

Private User

4/2/2023 at 1:24 AM

"problematic" profile: Gerrit Jacobsz Coetzee, b1c2 with brothers Dirk and Johannes.

Private User

4/2/2023 at 4:48 AM

So I think the problem is here, that even on Familysearch the source linked to Jan Jurgens Kotze goes back to the baptism in 1734 where he is clearly shown as COETZEE...

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSV8-W94W-8 (3rd last, right-hand page) now very importantly, the witnesses are Johannes COETZEE and Abigael APPEL.... well incidentally they also had a son Johannes Jurgen COETZEE whom was baptised here:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6LWV-6L?i=1&cc... (3rd entry, right-had page) and then incidentally the witnesses there are Dirk COETZEE and Levina CLOETE.

For me this is some evidence that the GF was not Dirk (Rooi Dirk) KOTZE, but Dirk COETZEE.

Alternatively, yes, that the baptism of Johannes Jurgen in 1733 is actually the current profile for Johannes Jurgen KOTZE, and that his children all born at the West Coast took on the surname KOTZE. Attempts have been made to build this alternative tree here:

Johannes Jurgen Kotze

But greater care is required to find on that tree the relationship between Johannes Kotze and the Dirk Coetzee father here:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSV8-W94W-8

I believe them to have been brothers, but not the brothers of the "problematic" b1 line.

However, given the coincidence, I believe the scenario given in no 1 to have been the most applicable. Can someone quickly help check all the COETZEEs whom married CLOETEs?

Private User

4/2/2023 at 7:57 AM

Johannes Coetzé

Jacobus Coetzee, b5c6

Scott Kotze

4/4/2023 at 4:09 AM

Coetzee:
I have not found a Dirk Coetzee that could be a possible candidate to be the fateher of Jan Jurgen Coetzee (born 1734).
- Dirk [b8] * 1694 - no marriag or offspring
- Dirk [b1c2] *c 1718 - son of the notorious Jacobus - no marriage or offspring
- Dirk [b3c7] *1735 - too young
- Dirk [b5c4] *1721 - too young

At the baptism of Jan Jurgen Coetzee in 1734, his parents are listed as Dirk Coetzee and Maria Magdalen Carsten [this is Dirk Kotze [b3] and his wife].
The witnesses are Johannes Coetzee and Abigail Appel. According to my research the Johannes Coetzee married to Abigail Appel was the son of Hans Jurgen Kotze [b1] and Elsabe Barzenius van Hof.
They baptized 2 children:
- Elsabe (1732) (witnesses: Claes Jansz Hofland and Levinia Cloete)
- Johannes Jurgen (1733) (witnesses: Dirk Coetze and Levinia Cloete)

Levinia Cloete was the mother of Abigail Appel, not married to a Coetzee.
At the 1733 baptism the surname is written as Coetze.

All the above evidence suggest that both Jan Jurgen (1734) and Johannes Jurgen (1733) were Kotze and not Coetzee.

Scott Kotze

4/4/2023 at 9:40 AM

Further to my first message, I have checked the baptisms of Jan Jurgen's children for the spelling of the surname:

1767: Johannes Jacobus v: Jan Jurgen Kotze m: Susanna Francina van Aarden
1769: Maria Elizabeth v: Jan Jurgen Cotze m: Susanna Francina van Aarde
1771: Maria Magdalena v: Jan Jurgen Kotze m: Susanna Francina van Aarden
1773: Johanna Susanna v: Jan Jurgen Coetseè m: Susanna Francina van Aarten
1774: Marta Jacoba v: Jan Jurrien Cotzee m: Susanna Francina van Aarde
1777: Jan Jurgen v: Jan Jurgen Kotzé m: Susanna Francina van Aarden

A quick look through the first 3-4 generations of Coetzee's in Oude Kaapsche Familien Vol1 (p156-161) - no individuals with the first names Jurgen or Jurien. It is not a Coetzee name.

Scott Kotze

4/5/2023 at 3:52 AM

I see that all the Kotze profiles now have the 2 Y DNA results. So the problem could lie elsewhere.

Private User

4/5/2023 at 7:39 AM

There are numerous possibilities besides the surname mixup for the yDNA anomaly. I have come across a few cases on Geni where the DNA result was propogated to the wrong Geni profile (technical difficulty). If not then it could be the result of a non-paternal evert (different biological father along paternal lineage).

The R-M269 haplogroup is a mega group. In order to surmise that it may be a Coetzee haplotype we would have to compare this specific STR-haplotype with the Coetzee STR-haplotype to determine whether there is a chance that this 'Kotze' could be from the same yDNA subclade as the Coetzee paternal lineage.

Private User

4/5/2023 at 8:05 AM

There are a total of 7 different Coetzee DNA kits in the Stamvader project, all have tested STR markers, no SNP tests unfortunately. All have the same R-M269 result. A match between the Kotze R-M269 and the Coetzee haplotype below is one way of confirming a shared paternal lineage within the genealogical timeframe.

Coetzee Haplotype: 13 23 14 11 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 31 15-15-17-17

Private User

4/5/2023 at 9:54 PM

Scott Hendrik and Alex: On the Y-DNA; no the problem is clearly seen here:

https://www.geni.com/list/dna_to?focus_id=6000000021660642963&d...

And the only reason we cannot see this from the COETZEE side is that no Y-DNA for COETZEE has been uploaded yet to Geni. The tree from the KOTZE tester (for the mega group R-M269) is up to b3c5 is accurate, and not in dispute?

However, thanks for clearing up the witnesses and going back to the Oude Kaapsche Familien, which I have also done when posting the previous messages, mainly trying to locate COETZEEs (and the witnesses). I think you have done well here Scott Hendrik.

I do not think we can say something like Jan Jurgen/Jurien is a KOTZE name. It is also a COETZEE name (and many others, not applicable tho) and Johannes Jurie and Jan Jurien (and multiple versions thereof) are in my mind equivalent. I started this discussion based on the 3 issues frequently experienced when working with these surnames, where for the first time this problem seems to point towards this very specific line and shown in the above diagram of this message.

Private User

4/5/2023 at 10:18 PM

Ha, but hold on... Private (our tester) was born a year before his parents' marriage. This makes this discussion relatively moot. Sorry for wasting your time.

Daniel Jacobus Botes C

4/10/2023 at 7:20 AM

Jan, apart from the present discussion. it has been noted in the past that uncertainties exist:

From a West Coast researcher's document

NOTA: Die vanne COETZEE en KOTZE is soms verwar.
As voorbeeld dien die volgende. By De Villiers/Pama, p. 148 kom onder: c6d5e2 voor Sarel
Coetzee ≈ 27.4.1794 s.v. Gerhardus Coetzee en Jannetje Du Toit. Sarel word as ongetroud
aangegee, maar hy is wel op 2.3.1823 te Worcester met Martha Magdalena KOTZE getroud.
Hulle kinders word as Kotzes gedoop, en die vader word as Charles Kotze aangegee. Die
name van die kinders, sowel as hulle geboorte en/of doopdatums is onder Coetzee b5c6d5e2
opgeneem. Dis moeilik om te bepaal of die nageslag COETZEES of KOTZES is.

Martha(Martie) Sophia Coetzee

9/30/2023 at 3:37 PM

I will see if I can get my brother to do a DNA test to get the Y-DNA.
He is a direct desendant from Dirk Coetzee, the SV/PROG.
First need to get the money together for the test, then I can send it to him for testing.@Martha(Martie)Sophia Coetzee

Jan Jurgens Kotzè, b3c5 - COETZEE AND KOTZE

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