John McElveen (McIlvaine) - Where to Start

Started by Amanda Torrey (Moyer) UZ9855520 on Wednesday, May 31, 2023
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Here's what I suggest.
I have posted my DNA in Geni. I have also joined the mtDNA project for H1 [https://www.geni.com/projects/H1-C16239T-Mitochondrial-DNA/36277]. Apparently, there are no profiles on Geni with Mitochondrial DNA that matches Susannah (Harvey) McElveen Burnside Bragg. "Greater confidence can be obtained by testing close relatives of Susannah (Harvey) McElveen Burnside Bragg."

There are 4 generations between William Emanuel McElveen Sr. and John McIlvaine so perhaps we should first see what matriarchal samples we can find and how they fit with the McElveens? I'm given a link to find samples and wouldn't it be cool if we found a McElveen somewhere that took a DNA test. I'll ask FTDNA.

There's 3 people listed as descendants of Susannah Harvey McElveen Burnside Bragg who are on Geni, one is me and one is my son, Robert. The third is Wallace Groover:

Wallace Groover: [https://www.geni.com/list/ancestors/6000000194775369834?compare_id=...]

I will see if I can find anybody on MyHeritage or even FamilyTree DNA and see how to add it to any of our report here.

Then if we isolate their chromosomes and segments we can isolate first the McElveens and then the next mother. Wouldn't that mean we find Margaret's (William Emanuel McElveen's mother's identification with chromosome of these descendants? or not?
Thoughts? Suggestions?

Look at Gedmatch also.

@ Erica Howton I know how to use Gedmatch - I may need to learn more about FriendFinder and tap into FamilyTreeDNA to find more relevant close relatives that might want to be part of the study.

@ Erica Howton A few years ago I began the Tartan Trail in Wikitree's Scotland Project. One of the profiles they gave me to source was John Mcilvaine and the Lady Cunningham. As I was attempting at the time to get a better focus on William McElveen in South Carolina, I searched for and found a Relationship between me and this John McIlvaine of Grimmet. They let me have the profile on Wikitree where I could begin a trek between The House of Grimmet and my colonial ancestor.

I researched Ayrshire and the Killing Times and when I arrived at the the McElveens settlement in Charleston, I found the issue with John McElveen in Charleston and the John who married Sarah Clark. John McElveen got a grant of land in Charleston and John Mcilvaine and Sarah Clark died in Northern Ireland. I sent up a flag on the file and invited the Southern Colonies Project into a profile where the manager was elderly and didn't come on much. So at some point, somebody (not the PM) who I assumed was from the SCP added the location of the marriage of John with Janet Dunn of Argyle and they reconnected the profiles and me who for whatever reason was disconnection by a mysterious person..

Where Wikitree is a Master of Sourcing, Geni has a better handle on genetic relationships and easy access to one's connection to lineages. Even in Wiki though we can show an unbroken bloodline (distant cousins) between me and Patrick McIlvaine [Patrick McIlvaine of Grimmet) an ancestor for John Mcilvaine and Lady Cunningham that I don't see reflected here. All I'm doing here in Geni is seeing if there is a blood connection worth chasing and identifying the path I should follow.

What's interesting is two things:

1. Every path I find goes through my 2nd Great Grandfather, Bridger John Wise. He married Susan Catherine "Katie" McElveen. Her mother was Susannah Harvey. Susannah and her husband William McElveen's story is fascinating, but mostly unsourced -- which I've been working on for the last few years. The issue with my research becomes intensely contentious on every platform out there that connects Susannah's father with a Richard from Albermarle. who when we look closer was apparently never married nor had children. In fact, he passed his estate to nieces and nephews.. This becomes important because the McElveens intermarried with Susannah Harvey's family after a bond created during the Fall of Charleston. Sourcing is incredibly difficult as the connections are hardwired to Harveys in Albermarle. Some arbitrary Richard' enlisted in Virginia even as there is a more compelling Richard Harvey enlistment in South Carolina where he would have met William McElveen. This has been a ridiculous fight which I see it here as well. I've connected with Albermarle here, began a discussion asking for reliable sourcing and I created another profile connected to my mother's matriarchal line.

This is why paper trails are tricky. It is so important to connect them to genetics. All of it must work together. But I promise you, there is no human being that can carry on a lineage without having children. (shoot). and finding the trail between colonial mcelveens and Scotland should not be so emotional. The name itself attaches to a clan even without paper or genetics. and that's why names are important.

This brings me to my second point:

The McIlvaines have a connection to me through Bridger John Wise. I'd have a closer connection though, through my 2nd Great Grandfather William Emanuel McElveen who married Susannah Harvey. it's ONE ANCESTOR away to closing the link that began in Wikitree. I cannot relinquish the identity of an ancestor whose traditional identity is just plain wrong. RICHARD HARVEY OF ALBERMARLE DID NOT PASS HIS ESTATE DOWN TO A WIFE AND FAMILY. omg...If that connection can be released we can begin to follow a proper trail. whose mother is a mysterious wife named Elizabeth that interestingly enough I found mitochondrial traces at Oxford during the Viking invasion through the project I joined at FamilyTreeDNA.

I have a lot of work to do on this line and am exhausted with people not even a part of this family making accusations and causing unwarranted issues for what? I lost my temper on Wikitree and frankly just want to work on the line alone. With that said, however, I deeply appreciate and hope to focus on any advice, counsel, and training in new skills. and I believe genetics is the answer.

Thank you for the opportunity to voice my concern.

I feel MUCH better. :D

Erica Howton btw I already started a Gedmatch document in Excel starting a collection of autosomal connections for this family. I need more ... and want to use Friendfinder as I have joined a project in FamilyTreeDNA.
kinda excited

If you can post for me the wrong connection on Geni in your line to a Harvey, glad to take a look. I’m not familiar, so can’t help without your pointers on this site.

Might as well post this link also.

Patrick McIlvaine of Grimmet

Conflated profile on Geni: [Richard Harvey, of Bryan County, GA

Compare with ongoing Wiki Research [https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Harvey-113]. Wish you had seen it last Marc h. :D Good job guys!

See Harvey L Teams Project [homepages.rootsweb.com/~harvey/TEAMS/team15.htm] Richard's on Team 15.

Patrick McIlvaine of Grimmet to me: [Patrick McIlvaine of Grimmet

Patrick to Alexander Stewart 4th High Steward of Scotland [Patrick McIlvaine of Grimmet

Alexander to me [Alexander Stewart, 4th High Steward of Scotland;

It's a path my family would love to be part of.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Harvey-113

The origins of Richard Harvey Sr. (abt.1759-abt.1823) are uncertain. There were several Richard Harveys in the US Southern Colonies during this era that are under consideration.

Candidates include:

  • Richard Harvey of Albemarle County VA
  • Richard Harvey of VA 11th Regiment
  • [Richard Harvey of North Carolina?]
  • Richard Harvey of SC 3rd Regiment (Rangers)
  • [others?]

Disproven relationships

  1. See Richard Harvie for details about his military service. This Richard never married. This note moved from the text above (SCOTTISH HARVEYS: Listed in the References below is the "Harvey L Teams Project. "Team 15" is for "Who: John HARVIE, Where: Gargannock Stirlingshire,, Scotland to VA When: b: c1706 Wife m: Martha Gaines. There we find 2 wills filed in Oglethorpe Co. GA. One for Richard Harvie and the other for his mother. This is not our Richard since Elizabeth is not listed in either will. But what is of interest is the Scottish connection in Stirlingshire. I believe its safe to assume more than one Harvie/Harvey is listed there. [Moyer-790|Amanda]] [42]”0)
  2. : A John Harvie listed as the father of Richard Harvey was disconnected from Richard Harvey. No sources have been found to support the relationship. https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Harvie-787

So, at this point in research, it is better to show Richard Harvey, of Bryan County, GA without parents, I take it.

Detached as son of Colonel John Harvie & Martha Harvie


Will have to address wife / wives / children separately. I am too unfamiliar to feel comfortable doing so right now.

exactly. the Richard Harvey that belongs to that profile lived in Georgia, near in Atlanta as did his mother which you see in that profile. He had no issue, but supported his nieces and nephews as did his mother.

Apologies for the TMI

So I can keep my present Richard and Elizabeth Harvey on my tree?

*Patrick to Alexander Stewart [Alexander Stewart, 4th High Steward of Scotland

Disattaching Richard Harvey from his parents didn't work.
I had created a new set of parents for Susannah Harvey where I posted their research and why Richard from Albermarle is wrong. I also proved Elizabeth whose father was a Morel was wrong. The paper trail is extensive.

My work was disattached, and replaced with this Richard. Now he's disattached from his family of Albermarle. There is in fact a Richard in Albermarle. He's just not my (our?) ancestor. which I have shown.

Elizabeth is locked in (there is not a Relationship Tab to delete the Relationship) of Morel. We have disproved in Wikitree that relationship which I was attempting to reflect here in our Elizabeth.

As far as I'm concerned, anybody can keep their tree, just don't attach to mine.

this happens ALL THE TIME. How can I protect the work I'm doing on my profiles.

Amanda Torrey (Moyer) UZ9855520

You need to post links to the geni profiles and advise the action needed. No X Ray Vision here!

And remember please we are not familiar. Where is your Richard to be merged and into what profile?

Are you saying Richard Harvey, of Bryan County, GA should have no wife, or that she should be detached from parents?

@ Erica Howton

I believe Richard from Albermarle should not be merged with mine. This is because he comes from a different family.

I am saying Elizabeth is not a Morel and should be disattached from her parents.

Susannah's parents' lineage is still being Researched.

I'm thrilled you're online now. I really do apologize for my lack of clarity. I am trying to continue posting in Discussions.and am just getting used to the Geni protocols. I may have had an old tree up a while ago, but am just now establishing my tree here now.

So, should I recreate Susannah Harvey who married William McElveen with a new Richard and Elizabeth Harvey?

@ Erica Howton
I should say Elizabeth married to Richard from Bryan County is not a Morel and at this time is not attached to parents. At this point, I do not believe Albermarle is not concerned with Bryan County.

@ Erica Howton
Does it look like I was capping at you personally? If so that was so not my intent. I am so excited about your help with having to restart what seems to me to be a large family again so I might be sounding aggressive.
Please my most sincere apologies.

* At this point, I do not believe Albermarle is not concerned with Bryan County. correction:
At this point I believe Albermarle is not concerned with anybody from Bryan County. yes?

What is the profile URL for Richard Harvey of Albemarle? Are there duplicates?

Elizabeth, wife of Richard Harvey Has been disconnected from parents.

I believe all notes have been preserved in the merge of Susannah (Harvey) McElveen Burnside Bragg and her parents Richard Harvey, of Bryan County, GA & Elizabeth, wife of Richard Harvey neither of whom have parents attached to them anymore. Relationships are locked so parents cannot be given to them without Curator intervention.

That also means that if there are children wrongly attached, a curator will need to do the disconnect. I count 13 children currently which seems to match notes.

Erica Howton

It looks like Richard from Albermarle is [Richard Harvey, of Bryan County, GA and should be reattached to hisAlbermarle lineage.

The descendants of Richard Harvey of Bryan County seem to be confused with Richard Harvey of Albermarle because Richard Harvey from Albermarle moved to Atlanta. (See https://homepages.rootsweb.com/~harvey/TEAMS/team15.htm. Richard from Albermarle in on Team 15, the last team) They are conflating his family's profiles and creating duplicates.

Our Richard Harvey probably migrated to Bryan County from SC. (This is not yet confirmed)

https://homepages.rootsweb.com/~harvey/TEAMS/team15.htm

The following is a copy of Richard's will filed in Oglethorpe Co, GA. as well as that of his mother, Martha Gaines.

The Will of Richard Harvie of Albemarle County was written 8 May 1783 nc filed at pg 153][Oglethorpe Co. Wills, Book A, 1793-1807]

He names no children but does name siblings. They match (somewhat) thr children attached to Colonel John Harvie & Martha Harvie

To me, it seems that Richard Harvie of Albemarle (who died 1783: childless) is a different man from Richard Harvey, of Bryan County, GA

What am I missing?

Erica Howton

Looks great! Love the colonial flag!!!
We'll revisit this couple when we get more information, but you are THE BEST!!!

I created a new Richard Harvie, of Albemarle County to reduce confusion. Since he is known not to have children, his profile is locked.

Erica Howton

LOVE IT!!!

Following Discussion with great interest, TY and Erica. It's my husband's line.

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