Margaret de Brienne - Should this profile be combined with https://www.geni.com/people/Margaret-de-Briene/6000000006101397829

Hi dale scott

IMO the 1379 dates were errors and I’ve deleted them.

See the profile biography for Guy Bryan, 1st Baron Bryan; he had a daughter Margaret by each wife. So no, don’t merge them. However, I did merge the Margaret that was attached to John Vl de Erleigh

… the younger Margaret may have questionable ancestry. I do not think she was the same person who married Courtenay.

Here’s the Douglas Richardson discussion of the Guy de Bryan (d 1390) family.

“C.P. Addition/Correction: Guy de Bryan, K.G., Lord Bryan, and his 1st wife, Joan de Carew” Feb 9, 2009, 4:10:18 PM. https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/OKQMz8bMDSg/m/...

I also see your comments at https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Brian-9 so I’m just catching up to what you’ve already learned.

Tagging Private User for thoughts.

Found it.

Nichols, John Gough. The Herald and Genealogist (Nichols and Nichols, Printer to the Society of Antquaries, London, 1863-1874) Vol. 1, Page 523

https://books.google.com/books?id=Di89AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA523#v=onepage&q...

Some of the families to whom these shields belong were certainly connected by alliance. The renowned Sir Guy de BRYAN, elected K.G. 1370 and summoned as a Baron to Parliament from 1350 to his death in 1390,* married for his second wife the lady Elizabeth MONTACUTE, daughter of William first Earl of Salisbury. On his well-known monument in the abbey church of Tewkesbury the arms of Bryan and Montacute are impaled. By the Lady Elizabeth he had a daughter, Margaret, the wife of Sir John Erlegh, who in 40 Edw. III. attended the Black Prince in his campaign in Spain, and was present in the battle of Naziers. Sir John Erlegh, his son, married Isabel daughter of Sir John Paveley,† and left one daughter, Margaret, his heiress, who was married first to Sir John de St. Maur; 2. to Sir Walter Sondes; and 3. to Sir William CHEYNEY. She died 21 Hen. VI.

More, but without Margaret’s name.

A P Baggs, R J E Bush and Margaret Tomlinson, 'Parishes: Somerton', in A History of the County of Somerset: Volume 3, ed. R W Dunning (London, 1974), pp. 129-153. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/som/vol3/pp129-153 [accessed 12 August 2023].

John (IV), his heir, died in 1337, when the estate was first described as a manor, later known as the manor of SOMERTON ERLEIGH. (fn. 172) John (V) succeeded as a minor and his lands were held by his mother Elizabeth until 1361. (fn. 173) In 1371–2 John (V) made over the manor to his father-in-law Sir Guy Brien, providing the tenants, Richard Brice and Edith his wife, with a life interest. (fn. 174) This settlement was altered in 1386 in favour of Sir William Brien and Philip Brien, (fn. 175) and again in 1388 in favour of Sir Guy's eldest son's, children. (fn. 176) A disputed succession followed the death of Guy the elder in 1390, and the manor passed to his elder granddaughter Philippe, wife successively of John de Ros and Henry le Scrope of Masham. (fn. 177) She died in 1406 and her heir was her sister Elizabeth, wife of Robert Lovell. (fn. 178) The manor was said to be held of the countess of Kent as of her manor of Somerton. (fn. 179) Scrope held it of the Lovells until his execution in 1415. (fn. 180)

172. Cal. Inq. p.m. viii, p. 58.
173. Ibid.; Cal. Pat. 1334–8, 466; S.R.S. ix. 386; Cal. Inq. p.m. xi, p. 52; Cal. Close, 1360–4, 320.
174. Cal. Pat. 1370–4, 117, 193; Ilchester Almshouse Deeds, ed. W. Buckler, no. 62; Proc. Som. Arch. Soc. ciii. 51.
175. Cal. Pat. 1385–9, 162; S.R.S. xvii. 202–3.
176. Cal. Close, 1385–9, 604, 628.
177. Complete Peerage, s.v. Bryan.
178. C 137/59/54.
179. Ibid.
180. S.R.S. xxii. 25, 177.

Private User

Do you know anything about Crisli verch Gruffudd Llwyd as wife of Guy de Bryan, Knt., of Walwyn's Castle

Gwenllian ferch Gruffudd is shown as wife of Guy Brionne and father of Sir Guy who married Joan Carew

You know what? I’m liking the chronology here (John dies 1410).

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/DeErleigh-3

John de Erleigh was aged 4 in 11 Edward III.[1]

John was the son and heir of John de Erleigh and his wife, Elizabeth —.[1] John's father, who died in 11 Edward III, was the son of John de Erleigh, who died in 17 Edward II, son of Philip de Erleigh.[1]

John was the brother of:

1. Richard;[1]
2. Catherine, prioress of Buckland;[1]
3. Elizabeth, who was married to Sir John Stafford;[1]
4. Alice, who was married to Sir Nicholas Poines, knt;[1]

John married Margaret, daughter of Sir Guy de Brien, Knight of the Garter.[1]

John and Margaret had children:

1. Sir John de Erleigh, succeeded to the manor of Beckington, married Isabel, daughter of Sir John Pavely;[1]
2. Richard;[1]
3. Philip;[1]
4. a daughter;[1]
5. a daughter;[1]
6. a daughter;[1]

Sir John de Erleigh in 40 Edward III went with the Black Prince to Spain where he fought in the battle of Naziers and other engagements and was taken prisoner. To pay his ransom he sold part of his ancient inheritance[1]

I—(10) SIR JOHN do ERLEIGH (b. 1334; d. 1410), was known as “The White Knight.”

In the fortieth year of Edward III. (1367) he attended the Black Prince into Spain, and was present at the battle of Naziers and several other engagements in that kingdom, in one of which he was wounded and taken prisoner, and, being put to a great ransom, was forced to sell the best part of his ancient inheritance.

See https://earlefamilyhistory.com/english-branches/devon-branch-the-ea...

I like the later dating because I think Margaret was born in the 1350s, therefore married around 1372, perfect fit for the 1372 Record (“ In 1371–2 John (V) made over the manor to his father-in-law Sir Guy Brien”).

So obviously this John could not be getting married and getting dead both in 1372 with 6 children, and the chronology at http://www.dankat.com/earls/chap1.htm has an error or this otherwise needs explanation: (“John de Erlegh(VII), son and heir of John(VI), succeeded his father in 1372. “)

According to Bartrum, using the Welsh manuscripts, it was not Gwenllian ferch Gruffudd who married de Brian, but Crisli.

Here she is in Geni so far — Crisli verch Gruffudd Llwyd

The Bartrum references on her profile haven’t been updated yet (Steven and I are working SO HARD on that project!), so here is the link to the Bartrum page (Marchudd 17) — https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000173393022889

On that page, you see that Gwenllian is the first listed of Sir Gruffudd Llwyd ap Rhys’s children — she is married to Cadwgan ap Hywel. Crisli is down the line three from the end, married first to Guy de Brian and second to Dafydd Moethe.

My general rule of thumb is, when the Anglo-Norman and the Welsh manuscripts differ, is to take the Anglo-Norman on the Anglo-Norman and the Welsh on the Welsh.

So my take on this is that Guy was married to Crisli. The Welsh are not giving any children to them; this I know because there is no info on Guy’s name pointing us to another page in the Welsh Genealogies.

Gruffudd, by the way, is not “Gruffudd ap Lloyd,” as appears in the Gwenllian profile now linked to Sir Brian. “Gruffudd Llwyd” means Gruffudd the Grey (or taupe, which amuses me). Lloyd is is nickname, not his father’s name. He is Gruffudd ap Rhys. With nickname Llwyd.

Private User - I paused to clean up kids & re number the Guy de Brian’s. At least 8 in a row. Fun times.

This is what Stirnet has:

http://www.stirnet.com/genie/data/british/bb4fz/bryan1.php

a. Sir Guy de Brian of Walwyn's Castle, Laugharne Castle, and Tor Brian (b c1254, d 1307) (V) m. Sibil de Sully (dau of Walter de Sully) named in some web sites

(1) Sir Guy de Brian or Brien of Walwyn's Castle, Laugharne Castle, and Tor Brian (d by 1349) (VI)

There is some confusion as to the identity of the wives of this and the next Guy. TCP (FitzPayn) reports that the first wife of Lord Briene was Joan, "da. (it is said) of Sir John de Carreu, of Carew" but TCP (Bryan) reports that Lord Briene "appears to have [married] .... Ann, or Alice, da .and h. of William Holway ....., but she possibly was his father's wife." As TCP (Bryan) reports that a "Guy de Brian ... and Alice his wife, were living 27 Jan 1343/4" and as Lord Briene is known to have married his second wife by July 1350, we suspect that Ann/Alice Holway was second wife of this Guy. Various web sites identify his 1st wife as Wenthlian (dau of Sir Griffith Lloyd of Anglesea) but, provisionally (!), we presume that she was Sir Griffith's daughter who, according to Griffith's Pedigrees, was named ...

m1. Krisli (Cicely) Lloyd (dau of Sir Griffith Lloyd of Tregarnedd & Dinorwic)

(A) Guy de Brian or Briene or Bryan, Lord Bryan or Briene (d 17.08.1390) (VII)

If Krisli was second wife, she would have been his widow, and it would have been a very short marriage (Anne / Alice Holway living 1344.

Are we confident Dafydd Moethe was Krisli’s 2nd husband?

NB unfortunately Stirnet repeats the very confused Virginia Bryan’s, so I am not finding this one of Stirnet’ better efforts.

Since Bartrum doesn't marry Gwenllian to any of the de Brians, I don't believe she was.

The Welsh Manuscripts, and therefore Bartrum, say that Crisli (there is no "k" in Welsh) was married to Dafydd Moethe, so I believe she was. Bartrum lists him second.

Bartram beats Richardson.:)

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000197197843849

This is great, more than dale scott expected, I would think.

Here, by the way, is Dafydd Moethe -- he and Crisli had several children. https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000173377782978

and his antecedents -- https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000173378195078 -- he is down on the bottom line, with other brothers named Dafydd. His full name is Dafydd Moethe ap Dafydd.

I have just found another reference to the problematic 2nd Margaret Bryan:

J.J. Alexander (1936). "The Early Owners of Torbryan Manor" < link >

Italics are for three items which “which must be regarded as doubtful or incorrect” -

Thank you, Dale. I cringe at trying to correct Richardson also. But in fairness, it’s what Anne said: English vs Welsh resources, and Richardson does not claim Welsh expertise. The work of Anne and Steve and Justa’s technical support on geni makes Bartrum’s work much more available and understandable.