John Vl de Erleigh - When did John de Erleigh die?

Started by dale scott on Friday, August 11, 2023
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His profile states John died 1361.

This states John died after 1367.
https://archive.org/details/historyantiqutit02colluoft/page/199/mod... The history and antiqutities of the county of Somerset
by Collinson, John, pg 199 states "John his fon and heir was a knight, and 40 Edw. III. attended the Black Prince into Spain, and was prefcnt at the battle of Naziers, and feveral other engagements in that kingdom, in one of which he was wounded and taken prifoner; and being put to a great ranfom, was forced to fell the beft part of his ancient inheritance. By Margaret daughter of Sir Guy de Brien, knight of the garter, he left iffue John, Richard, and Philip, and three daughters."
40th year of the reign of Edward III would be abt 1367.

This states he was living 1369
https://books.google.com/books?id=EXUGXFjYjZkC&q=erleigh#v=onep...
A Cartulary of Buckland Priory in the County of Somerset
By Buckland Priory
pg xviii
PEDIGREE OF THE ERLEGH FAMILY
John de Erlegh Vi living 1369   (No 39) 

This states John was alive until 1372
http://brennen.caltech.edu/earls/chap1.htm EARLS FAMILY CHRONICLES © Christopher Earls Brennen
in 1367 and several other engagements [11,v.2,p.199].
He was taken prisoner, put to great ransom, and forced to sell the best part of his ancient inheritance [5,p.245].
In 1371 he had license to enfief John Cole of Bridgewater and his wife Margery in the manors of North Petherton, Somerton, Durston and Beckington, Somerset with the remainder to himself and his heirs [18][35,v.6,44EdIII].
This connection with the Cole family may be of considerable significance in the Earls family chronicle as discussed in the next chapter.
In 1372 John (VI) sold the manor of Somerton-Erleigh in the hundred of North Petherton, Somerset (and the advowson of the chapel) to Richard Brice and his wife, Edith (who passed it to Sir Guy de Brien) [11,v.3,p.185] but retained to himself the manors of Babcary, Durston and Beckington [6][35,45EdIII,n.17].
The Berkshire manors were alienated about this time and the manor of Earlstown in Kilkenny, Ireland was conveyed to John Sweetman before 1381 [16,p.245][7,p.159].
Also in 1367 John (VI) remitted and released to Robert, Abbot of Athelney, Somerset and the convent all his right of six pennies which Roger Clavyle used to pay him yearly for his holding in Farendon in North Petherton as well as to a pair of nun's boots which the Abbot and convent used to render him yearly [32,v.14,p.175,n.164].

This also states John died 1372
https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00685059&tr...
John de Erlegh[1]
Male 1332 - 1372  (39 years)
Birth         29 Oct 1332          Durston, Somerset  
Gender         Male
Lived In         England  
Death         1372
Father         John de Erlegh,   b. Abt 1308   d. 1337 (Age ~ 29 years)
Mother         Elizabeth   d. Aft 1337
Marriage         Bef 1328
Family         Margaret de Bryan   d. Aft 1361

This states John died 1394
https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/LX7R-K6S/sir-john-%27the-whit...
Sir John 'The White Knight' de Erleigh, VI
Male 29 November 1332–1394

This states he died 1410!
http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~desmier/genealogy/docs/Earles%20of%2...
Scanned copy of EARLES OF ENGLAND-SOMERSET
pg 10-11'
(10)   SIR  JOHN  de  ERLEIGH   (b.  1334;  d.  1410),  was  known  as  "The  White  Knight."    In  the  fortieth  year  of  Edward  III.  (1367)  he  attended  the  Black  Prince  into  Spain,  and  was  present  at the battle  of  Naziers  and  several other  engagements  in  that  kingdom,  in  one   of   which   he   was   wounded   and   taken   prisoner,   and,   being put  to  a  great  ransom,  was  forced  to  sell  the  best  part  of  his  ancient  inheritance.    By  Margaret,  daughter   of  Sir  Guy  de  Brien,  Knight  of  the  Garter,  he   left   issue:  John,   Robert,   Richard,   Philip   and   three   daughters.

It would seem he was alive until at least 1372, but that causes a problem with his wife." Margaret,  daughter   of  Sir  Guy  de  Brien,  Knight  of  the  Garter,."

This states  Margaret,  daughter   of  Sir  Guy  de  Brien 1309-1390, married John Erle.
https://devonassoc.org.uk/devoninfo/early-owners-of-torbryan-manor-...
Early Owners of Torbryan Manor (1936)
Author(s): Alexander. J. J.; Year published: 1936; Origin: DA Transactions; Pages: 198
Sir William Pole's account of Torbryan, printed in his Collections -
Lord Guy de Bryan (1309-1390)married unto his first wief Anne, daughter and heire of William Holway, and had issue Anne, wief of sir John Cary [author notes that Poole is wrong]; his second wife, was Margaret, daughter of William de Montacute , Erle of Sarum, by whom he had issue Sir Guy de Brian the younger, Sir Phillip, Sir William, and Margaret, wief of Sir John Erle.

However,as of 1361, Margaret daughter of Sir Guy de Brienne was married to Hugh Courtenay, rather than John de Erleigh.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/berks/vol4/pp369-379
Hugh Earl of Devon settled the manor for her life in 1361 on Margaret daughter of Sir Guy de Brienne, wife of his grandson Hugh son of Hugh de Courtenay.
That Margaret evidently died shortly as Hugh remarried about 1663.

OPTIONS
#1. John de Erleigh died before Margaret married 2ndly Hugh de Courtenay about 1361. That can't be right if John was with the Black Knight in Spain 1367. Certainly wrong IF he was alive in 1372.
#2 John de Erleigh divorced Margaret before she married Hugh about 1361. That could be, but I've seen no record about them being divorced. Possible though.
#3 John de Erleigh who married Margaret, daughter of Sir Guy de Brienne, was not the same John de Erleigh who accompanied the Black Knight to Spain.
#4 Margaret daughter of Sir Guy de Brienne, who married John de Erleigh, was not the same woman who married Hugh de Courtenay. https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/5LrMIB7JbUs?pli=1 states Margaret was the dau of Guy who died 1349 rather than Guy who died 1390. However, Early Owners of Torbryan Manor cited earlier, states her father was the Guy who died 1390.

Having John die before 1361 makes things simple, but that doesn't seem true.

So, taking his wife Margaret into account, when did John de Erleigh die?

Updated to death 1372 based ok the following:



The following is copied from Christopher Earls Brennen's website on the Erlegh family, http://www.dankat.com/earls/chap1.htm:

John de Erlegh(VI), son of John de Erlegh(V), was born in 1334 and was only two years old when his father died in 1337 [1,v.3,p.213]. On March 19, 1337 the King granted William de Monte Acuto, Earl of Salisbury custody of the de Erlegh lands in England and Ireland during the minority of the heirs of John(V) [7,p.159]. In 1344, the king appointed John de Balscote keeper of the manor of Erleyston, Kilkenny by reason of the minority of John(VI) [17][16,p.245]. John(VI) is listed as the heir of “John Derley” in owing 3/4 knight's fees for Erleyston and Nova Coyllagh in County Kilkenny in 1355 [16,p.200,n.27]. He was summoned on March 15 1361/62 to attend a Great Council at Westminster in order to deliberate upon the disturbed state of Ireland [18]. …

John(VI) married Margaret, daughter of Sir Guy de Brien K.G. (who was standard bearer to King Edward III at Crecy) and they had four sons, John(VII), Robert, Richard and Philip, and three daughters [31][11,v.2,p.199]. John(VI) died in 1372, possibly a victim of the Black Death then sweeping the country, leaving John(VII) his son and heir [7][18].

John de Erlegh(VII), son and heir of John(VI), succeeded his father in 1372. [3. John de Erleigh is stated to have married Isabael de Paveley, daughter of Sir John de Paveley [?PCC 1393?]. John may have been born any time ca. 1360-70, given his daughter's probable birth date.]

I’m going to upload the site and attach to profiles as it has good references that may help your research on this family.

As the Margaret de Brienne, apparently there were two sisters with same name but different mothers and different husbands.

Guy Bryan, 1st Baron Bryan

Married (1) Joan Carew, daughter of sir John Carew/Carreu

Margaret de Bryan, married Hugh de Courtenay

Children with Elizabeth Montacute/Montagu

Margaret,married John Erlegh

I will merge Margaret de Erleigh but you’ll have “fun” reconciling dates.

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