Beatrice Aleramici, del Monferrato - Dates and proof need attention.

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Private User
yesterday at 5:43 PM

Got another email listing inconsistencies on profiles I co-manage.

Beatrice Aleramici, del Monferrato had 2 children between the ages of 0 and 15 years old.

Tip: Correct the birth date of Beatrice Aleramici, del Monferrato (born circa 1142) or the following children:

Marquise d'Albon - Marquise d'Albon, /!\ (b. circa 1155 France, just 13 years after her mother's birth).

Alix (D'Aubergne) du Puy, Princess Dauphine - Alix (D'Aubergne) du Puy, Princess Dauphine /!\ (b. circa 1132 France, a decade before her mother's birth).

I don't see a source for either of these children. The second one and her husband recently had problematic merges (seriously conflicting birthdates).

From Wikipedia:

Guigues [V] died without male heirs at Vizille in 1162. He left a daughter, Beatrice, who inherited his lands and titles.[4]

The identity of his wife, whom he married in 1155, is uncertain, other than that she was a kinswoman of Frederick Barbarossa, according to Chorier.[a]

However, Usseglio has shown that Chorier had misdated a charter of Frederick II for one of Frederick I: the Beatrice of Montferrat in question was the daughter of William VI of Montferrat, and widow of Guiges V's grandson Guigues VI of Viennois.[b]

Chorier, in his Histoire Générale de Dauphiné (1641, Grenoble, republished 1878, Valence, vol. I, p. 616) identified her as Beatrice, a daughter of William V of Montferrat, and also assigned to them a son who died young.
I Marchesi di Monferrato in Italia ed in Oriente durante i secoli XII e XIII (Casale Monferrato, 1926, vol. 1, pp. 167–69)
McKitterick & Abulafia 1999, p. 368.
Previté-Orton 1912, p. 292.
Previté-Orton 1912, p. 323.
Cheyette 2004, p. 261.
Cheyette, Fredric L. (2004). Ermengard of Narbonne and the World of the Troubadours. Cornell University Press.
McKitterick, Rosamond; Abulafia, David, eds. (1999). The New Cambridge Medieval History: Volume 5, C.1198-c.1300. Cambridge University Press.
Previté-Orton, C. W. (1912). The Early History of the House of Savoy, 1000–1233. Cambridge at the University Press.

So there may be some confusion among profiles sharing similar names:,_Marquis_of_Montferrat#:~:....


Here is the Italian Wikipedia biography for her second husband:

Shortly after 1162 Frederick Barbarossa gave Henry his cousin, Beatrice del Monferrato, as a wife .

The couple had five children:

Otto (*~ 1160 †~ 1240 ), marquis of Dego and Roccaverano; he will be the first to adopt the title " De Carreto ", derived from the name of the castle near Cairo , his main residence;
Henry II (*~ 1170 † before 1231 ), marquis of Finale;
Isabella (*? † 1191 );
Ambrogio (*? †~ 1192 ), bishop of Savona from 1183 to 1192;
Boniface I (*? † 1199 ), bishop of Savona from 1193 to 1199.

The Italian Wikipedia biography for our Beatrice under discussion here is well researched with references and cited sources:

Beatrice degli Aleramici, or Beatrice del Monferrato (circa 1142 – 1228), therefore belonged to the feudal family of the Aleramici, and was Dauphin consort of Viennois and countess consort of Albon, from 1155 to 1162 and Marchioness consort of Finale, from circa 1165 to 1185.

Both according to the De Allobrogibus libri novem, and according to the Ex vita Margaritæ Albonensis comitissæ, Beatrice was a blood relative of the emperor Frederick Barbarossa [1], and that she was the daughter of the Marquis of Monferrato, William V [2]; finally, also Nicolas Chorier, in his Histoire de Dauphiné confirms that she was the daughter of the Marquis of Monferrato, William V and of Judith of Babenberg [3], who according to the Continuatio Claustroneoburgensis I was the daughter of Agnes of Waiblingen and her second husband, the Margrave of Austria, Leopold III of Babenberg (St. Leopold of Babenberg) [4].

William V of Monferrato, according to document no. 38 of the Monumenta Aquensia, Pars I, was the only son of the Marquis Ranieri degli Aleramici and Gisella of Burgundy [5].

In 1155, both according to De Allobrogibus libri novem, and according to Ex vita Margaritæ Albonensis comitissæ, Beatrice was given in marriage to the Dauphin of Viennois and count of Albon, Ghigo V [6] [2], who, according to document n ° 3776 of the Regeste dauphinois, ou Répertoire chronologique et analytique des documents, tome I, fascicolo II, was the only son of the Dauphin of Viennois and count of Albon, Ghigo IV and his wife Clemenza known as Margaret of Mâcon [7], who, as the Ex vita Margaritæ Albonensis comitissæ confirms, she was the granddaughter of Pope Callixtus II, daughter of Stephen I of Mâcon, Count Palatine of Burgundy, and of Beatrice of Lorraine [8]; the relatives of Margherita or Clemenza ( Macildam vel Clementiam filiam Stephani seu Sophini, Burgundiæ ducis), are also confirmed by De Allobrogibus libri novem [6].

Again according to De Allobrogibus libri novem, her husband, Ghigo V, died in Vizille, in 1162 and was buried, next to his father [9], in the Cathedral of Grenoble.

Again according to De Allobrogibus libri novem, Ghigo V died, leaving no male heirs [10]; according to the Histoire générale du Dauphiné. vol. 1 / par Nicolas Chorier, however, upon his death, Ghigo V also left a male heir, named Ghigo, who survived his father only a few years [3]. However, upon the death of Ghigo V, Beatrice's mother-in-law, Clemenza known as Margherita, assumed the regency for her only daughter, Beatrice (or first for her son, Ghigo, and after [his] death, for Beatrice).

Around 1165 Frederick Barbarossa, as confirmed by the Europäische Stammtafeln [11], Vol. III, chap. 738 (not consulted), he gave Beatrice, who was his first cousin, and widow of Ghigo V, as wife to the Marquis of Finale [12], Enrico del Vasto known as the One-Eyed or the Valorous [13], who, according to the document n° 42 of the Monumenta Aquensia, Pars I, was one of the male children of the Marquis of Savona and Western Liguria, Bonifacio del Vasto [12] and of Agnese di Vermandois.

Around 1185, Beatrice was widowed for the second time.

In around 1197, returning from Sicily, the knight-troubadour Raimbaut de Vaqueiras returned to Monferrato and here he met Beatrice, sister of the Marquis Bonifacio who was hosting him and widow of Enrico del Carretto. Falling in love with the woman, he composed several songs for her and began singing in different languages. [14]

BEATRICE lived until 1228 and was buried in the Cathedral of Grenoble [13].

BEATRICE gave Ghigo only one daughter [15] [16]:

*Beatrice, to whom the title of Delfina was transferred, which she passed on to her son, **Andrea Ghigo, from her second husband, Hugh III of Burgundy [3].

BEATRICE gave Enrico five children [17]:

*Enrico II del Carretto (1165-1231) marquis of Savona [12];
*Otto († 1228), marquis of Dego and Roccaverano [12];
*Isabella († 1191)
*Ambrose (1170 - 1192), bishop of Savona from 1183 to 1192
*Boniface (1172 - 1224), bishop of Savona from 1193 and of Asti from 1215 to 1224.

"The Lady of Monferrato", whom Raimbaut calls "Bel Cavaller" in his poems, is particularly epigraphed in all the razós, [18] which explain why Raimbaut gave her this nickname:

Private User
yesterday at 5:56 PM

These merges may bear no relevance to the inconsistencies in the OP, since neither of the children in the OP are proven and probably should be disconnected. Guigues ("Ghigo") V only had one surviving child, the daughter, Beatrice who married Hugh III of Burgundy.

Beyond that, I couldn't say without sources where the unproven children belong in the world tree.

Private User
yesterday at 6:59 PM

I don't know how it got connected in the first place, but his is the third unproven child of Beatrice and Guigues V:

Maria de Vienne, /!\

And this source proves that the two merged Alix's (Tournon and the "Princess Dauphine") were not the same person:

The French Wikipedia cautions us against confusing the Delphinale and Ducal families of D'Auvergne, due to the similarities of names.

Beyond that, I was unable to pin down Alix and her siblings.

yesterday at 7:03 PM

by Medlands:

Marquise d'Albon, /!\ is sister,
not daughter of Guigues V Dauphin, comte d'Albon et de Grenoble (total looked)
I remember working all around here, maybe if now the good omnipresent (C) Erica Howton unlock him, let's continue the work :)

yesterday at 7:08 PM

..and just removed one more brother-sister,
merging a ten-year DUP misunderstanding:
- :D

Private User
yesterday at 7:33 PM

Thank you, Livio. It certainly requires a team effort, lol.

yesterday at 8:21 PM

Private User & Livio Scremin - detached the extra children of Beatrice Aleramici, del Monferrato Curating her profile and locking relationships.

Private User
yesterday at 8:54 PM

Thank you, Erica!

Today at 7:08 AM

ok, if you remove total block of Guigues V Dauphin, comte d'Albon et de Grenoble
..I would also like to add the ML and photos

Today at 10:08 AM

Livio Scremin - changed Guigues V Dauphin, comte d'Albon et de Grenoble to Relationship Locked only.

I’m a little bothered about Beatrix’s supposed 3rd marriage & child. Wasn’t she a bit old for it? And, Medlands has that Alberto Malaspina, il Moro married an unidentified daughter of William V Aleramici, "the Old" marquess of Montferrat & Judith of Babenberg

Today at 10:11 AM

Leo van der Pas, citing both the suspect Turton - The Plantagenet Ancestry - and the standard Europäische Stammtafeln, does not have this third marriage for Beatrix.

Today at 11:33 AM

all reported in the internal info-about of the node involved,

summing up we say that for ML the wife of Moro Malaspina it's a daughter of her father,
for Italian historians of the Malaspina family it is right her.

Today at 11:56 AM

regarding the dates:
birth c.1142: it's just an "about" that comes from wiki
(she has the brother RANIERI di Monferrato, ML dated born 1163)

and about the 3rd Malaspina marriage
ML say before 1202 <--

- - - - - - - - -
in my opinion there are all the indications to leave it as it is...
even if the Malaspina site has now fallen off line D:

Today at 12:12 PM

Changed date to “before 1155,” which is when her marriage was arranged.

My connection is through Alice of Saluzzo, Countess of Arundel

(Italy > England)

And then Capt. Roger Mallory

(Lancashire, England > King William County, Virginia)

Private User is that what you have?

Today at 1:51 PM

Changed date born “before 1146" for biological calculation:
her first daughter is ML dated born 1161

Today at 2:20 PM

Fair enough. But that makes her over 56 as mother of Caracosa di Gavi (presuming she was born after 1202 marriage).

3rd marriage for Beatrice could be moved to 1197, making her “only” 51. (Still skeptical …)

Today at 2:23 PM

"before" do not forget "before"
that "22 Aug 1202" it is not the wedding date.

Today at 2:23 PM

Ah! Could be earlier - after 1184.

2nd husband:

Enrico Guercio, Margrave of Savona d. 1184, Finale

Her age 38 for “celebrated beauty” and 3rd marriage, quite reasonable.

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