Papia de Normandie, Daughter of Richard II - Evidence?

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It seems Cawley and associates have either not yet come upon a source for this presumed daughter, or this profile is insupportable.
https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORMANDY.htm#_ftnref251

Leo van der Pas has her

https://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00139684&tree=LEO

Citing

  • [S00301] Schwennicke, Detlev (Ed.), ~Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag, Marburg. 2:79

(That’s the old standard book for European nobility, supposed to be pretty good)

Perhaps try looking through her husband.

Wicbert Sire de Saint Valéry

Or brother

Mauger of Normandy, Archbishop of Rouen


Biographical comment at https://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020046&tree=LEO

Richard also had two illegitimate children, Mauger of Normandy who became Archbishop of Rouen, and Papie, who would have progeny.

Ah ha - though …

The Henry Project: The Ancestors of King Henry II of England
(Stewart Baldwin, First uploaded 8 February 2004, last updated 2020)

https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/richa001.htm

Commentary

Falsely attributed children:

FEMALE Papia, m. Gulbert, advocate of St. Valéry-en-Caux.

Gulbert's wife (whose name may or may not have been Papia) was probably a daughter of Richard I. Since Gulbert's son was old enough to witness a charter in 1025, it is obviously chronologically impossible for her to have been a daughter of Richard II by his second wife Papia, as given by some [Stasser (1990), 66; ES 2: 79 (with a husband named "Wicbert")]. Even if one attempted to make her an illegitimate daughter of Richard II born before his marriage to Judith, the chronology would only be barely possible. Gulbert's wife is discussed more fully on the page of Richard I.

https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/richa000.htm

(probable) daughter, m. Gulbert, advocate of St. Valéry-en-Caux.
The main primary source is OV vi, 8 [vol. 3, pp. 252-3]: "Gulbertus cognomento Aduocatus de Sancto Gualerico filiam Ricardi ducis uxorem duxit ex qua Bernardum patrem Gualteri de Sancto Gualerico et Ricardum de Hugeuilla genuit. Ricardus autem duci Normanniæ auunculo uidelicet suo diu militauit, cuius dono nobilem Adam Herluini senis de Hugleuilla relictam cum toto patrimonio eius accepit." The "duke Richard" whose daughter married Gulbert has been variously identified, e.g., as Richard I [e.g., Searle (1988), 100, 289], Richard II [e.g., Stasser (1990), 56], and even Richard III [e.g., Douglas (1964), 65]. Although Searle did not explicitly state her reason for making Richard I the father of Gulbert's wife, it seems clear that it was based on chronological considerations, for she cites a charter of 1025 [Faroux no. 34] which was attested by Richard son of Gulbert, which seems to rule out that Richard's mother could be a daughter of any Norman duke later than Richard I. The chronology of other members of the family also fits well with Richard I as Gulbert's father-in-law. The matter has been confused somewhat by two other references, one in the ninth book of Orderic's Ecclesiastical History, in a list of those joining Robert Curthose on Crusade in 1096 ["... Gualterius comes de Sancto Gualerico Ricardi iunioris ducis Normannorum ex filia nomine Papia nepos, ...", OV, 5: 34-5], and the other in Robert de Torigny's Chronicle under the year 1026 ["Mortuo Ricardo secundo duce Normannorum, filio primi Ricardi, successit ei filius eius Ricardus tercius. Hic genuit Nicolaum postea abbatem Sancti Audoeni et duas filias, Papiam videlicet uxorem Walteri de Sancto Walerico, et Aeliz, uxorem Ranulfi vicecomitis de Baiocis.", Chr. Rob. Tor., MGH SS 6: 478]. It seems difficult to reconcile all three accounts without having marriages between the families in three succesive generations, which would give highly unlikely first-cousin marriages in two successive generations. It seems likely that at least one of the three accounts is confused (most likely Orderic's second account). Since the accounts could well be describing more than one marriage between the two families, the name of Gulbert's wife is unclear. The above contradictions (which make it possible that it is Orderic's first account that is confused), and the fact that there is no known contemporary proof for the relationship, is why the link is listed as "probable" above. Given the lack of a detailed discussion in the secondary sources mentioning this link, a more detailed study would be desirable. (In September 2002, there was a thread entitled "Reginald de St. Valery and His Descendants" in the soc.genealogy.medieval/GEN-MEDIEVAL internet newsgroup/mailing list, in which some of the postings discussed this matter, including one by Todd Farmerie that discussed the above chronological considerations.)



(Sorry for the long extract, but it’s interesting.)

She’s at Medlands here

13th daughter. Guillaume of Jumièges records that Richard had two daughters "ex concubinis", but does not name them[151]. same person as...? PAPIA ). … "Duci Normanniæ" is not named, but from the context he was probably Richard [II] who would have been "avunculo" of Richard [de Heugleville] if his mother had been Richard I's daughter. m GILBERT Advocate of Saint Valéry, son of ---.


In which case, we could, if agreed, merge Papia de Normandie, Daughter of Richard II Into Papia de Normandie

Thoughts?


Side note; the about for Richard II "the Good", Duke of Normandy needs to be rewritten. It’s unreadable currently.

Yes, I see the Medlands reference. However, the conjecture is for a daughter of "RICHARD I "Sans Peur" Comte [de Normandie]", not Richard II « le Bon », duc de Normandie.

“13. daughter. Guillaume of Jumièges records that Richard had two daughters “ex concubinis”, but does not name them[151]. same person as…? PAPIA ). Orderic Vitalis records that “Gulbertus cognomento advocatus de Sancto Gualerico” married “filiam Ricardi ducis”[152]. It is not clear from this text to which duke Richard he refers. In a later passage the same source confirms her name as Papia, naming [her grandson] "...Gualterius, comes de Sancto Gualerico, Ricardi iunioris, ducis Normannorum, ex filia, nomine Papia, nepos..."[153]. Some authors have taken this to refer to Duke Richard III, presumably inspired by Robert de Torigny who names "Nicolaum…duas filias Papiam…uxorem Walterii de Sancto Walerico et Aeliz uxorem Ranulfi vicecomitis de Baiocis" as the children of "Ricardo secundo duce Normannum filio primi Ricardi"[154]. That is, however, chronologically impossible assuming that it is correct, as asserted by Orderic Vitalis[155], that Papia's son, Richard [de Heugleville], helped Guillaume II Duke of Normandy in the 1054 rebellion when he was already old enough for Geoffroy de Neufmarché to be his son-in-law: the chronology therefore suggests that Papia must have been born in the later 10th century, in which case she was the daughter of Richard I. She could therefore have been his second unnamed daughter recorded by Guillaume of Jumièges. This suggestion appears confirmed by another passage in Orderic Vitalis which, after naming Papia’s two sons, records that the younger “Ricardus [de Huglevilla]” fought for “duci Normanniæ avunculo...suo” who arranged his marriage[156]. “Duci Normanniæ” is not named, but from the context he was probably Richard [II] who would have been “avunculo” of Richard [de Heugleville] if his mother had been Richard I’s daughter. m GILBERT Advocate of Saint Valéry, son of ---."

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORMANDY.htm#RichardIdied996A

At Google Books, I found a some footnoted French medieval books. My search query involved these parameters:
A – Papia+"fille Richard le bon"+Normandie
B – Papia+"fille Richard II"+ Normandie

The only "Papia" that I found was the wife or a possible daughter of Richard I « sans Peur ». That said, I do lack of experience knowing what or how else to search.

Medlands and even better, the prestigious Henry Project conclude “Gulbert's wife (whose name may or may not have been Papia) was probably a daughter of Richard I.” I think we now understand how her profile originated.

“Probably” is a strong word in medieval genealogy. The Henry Project may be the single best contemporary medieval genealogy on line I know of (15 years knowledge). So let’s resolve the extra “Papia” by merging her into her aunt.

Do we agree?

I concur!

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