Kristina and her parents

Hej Private User

I am working on a related part of this line, trying to clear up dates and other relatives. I know Kerstin Arvisdotter was of an unknown line, based on information in riksarkivet, and have suggested a merge for

Kerstin Arvidsdotter

and

MP Kerstin Arvidsdotter

Where I have run into some issues are the suggested birth dates per riksarkivet and other known sources mentioned there, and

Hillevi Eriksdotter Falk

Do you know of any sources which prove existence for Hillevi? It would be helpful to see an image of the burial in Linköping. Or records confirming her marriage to Erik Persson Skute

So far, I can only confirm Erik was married, and not the name of his wife. I know Kerstin Arvidsdotter reported having "several small children, at least 4" I have not been able to find all of their names, or confirm the genders of each of her known children beyond the more famous men and her daughter Karin.

My issue with Hillevi is her suggested birth date in every place I see her discussed online. Her parents would not have given birth to her at 6-7 years old. To work around this, others have changed the birth dates of her suggested parents, however riksarkivet seems clear on their birth and death. (I added links to profiles.)

It would be great if we can add any original sources to these profiles. I have not had much luck locating them, I feel because of the dates involved.

(I can read Swedish well enough, so it's fine for sources or replies.)

Could Hillevi be from another Falk/Falck? This is another concern, as the more I dig into this there seems a lot of confusion with both the Skutes and the Falk families.

Thank you!

Tack!

I have been trying to work out the dates by method of what we know of the others. We have quite a bit of information, for example, about Bengt Falck,

Often researching laterally will dig up some dusty old clues and documents. I suspect the problem with Hillevi is whatever is known of her and documented, is in a book somewhere in Sweden and not yet available online, and currently I'm in New England.

Anyone in/near Linköping reading and able to find the grave of her alleged bishop father and provide a photo? Or other documentation perhaps?

I took a stage shot of the arrangement 3-4 months ago. I don't understand how Kristina Arvidsdotter (Store) can be an inauthentic line as you put it. Whoever removed one of Hillevi's parents are the only ones who know what it looked like before. Except me. The line looks li this for 3 months till now.

Her mother] Brita Kugelhielm birger -> Her  mother] Anna Stierfelt  -> Her father] Peder Eriksson Skute -> his mother] Hillevi Eriksdotter Falk -> Her mother] Kristina Arvidsdotter (Store) Her father] Riksråd Arvid Knutsson (Sparre över Stjärna) -> His father] Knut Arvidsson, till torpa (Sparre över Stjärna)

It seems the information I added did not survive merges and profile deletions, so I will link below.

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/sbl/Presentation.aspx?id=15019

Re: Erik Falck (Ericus F., Falch, Falk), f. troligen på 1510-talet, d. 1570 (ej 1569).

"G., troligen på 1550-talet, m. Kerstin (Christina) Arvidsdotter, av okänd släkt. Hon fick som änka Stora Munkeboda (Skarab.) i förläning på livstid genom k. brev 1 febr. 1571 (S. Åkermarcks extrakt, fol. 216 v., KA). Då sonen Erik F. erhöll bl. a. denna gård i förläning 28 jan. 1590 (S. Åkermarcks extrakt, fol. 527 v.), var hon tydligen då nyligen död."

I'm personally of the opinion Kerstin very well could have been connected to Sparre över Stjärna, but I'm not (yet) able to find proof. There is discussion of old land transfers and other things that existed which suggest complicated relationships between these families, but like the Falk/Falck lines, everything is a mess.

I think the answers, if they are to be found, are probably in old books, parish records or burials, maybe? Online all I can find is confusion and squabbling and endless people copying in trees from one another and precious few original sources for the relationships in these lines.

I cannot say Riksarkivet has everything correct either, only that they are generally a reputable source. A person put the article there, and we all make mistakes.

I will continue to research, because I am now obsessed. :-)

Private User

I see a small part of the issue here with these lines where Geni may be of some clarity:

Bengt Eriksson Falck, who died in the blodbad was NOT the son of Erik Persson Skute and HIllevi Falck as noted in Geni bios (bit thankfully NOT relationship paths) AND in Adelsvapen. I have found errors in Adelsvapen before, it happens.

Erik Persson Skute

So, I suggest locking the profiles so we do not have people adding based on Adelsvapen. I referenced it with a caution under the mention this week and can remove my remarks, but do not want to delete another member's work.

https://www.adelsvapen.com/genealogi/Skute_(Tre_Sn%C3%A4ckor)#TAB_3

See:

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/sbl/Presentation.aspx?id=15015

Also, there is no possible way Helena Skute can be the daughter with a ca. 180 year gap between parents:

https://www.geni.com/discussions/287082

This is an interesting article of the known history of the Falck family, and it is where I found the mention of Kerstin having at least 4 small children, among other things. Worth a few minutes to read.

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/sbl/Presentation.aspx?id=15009

The sources alone used could be very useful in clearing some of these messes

Also interesting, relating to the name Hillevi.

https://historiska.se/nomina/?nomina_name=hillevi

The earliest it is recorded is in the 1480s, so it seems almost a trendy sort of name IF this HIllevi was really born in the early 1500s. I think she was born a bit later. I have also found some possible suggestions the bishop Falck's daughter buried near him may have been something else, but not sure of it yet.

I hope none of you mind my adding here. I think it is preferable to the profiles, since they seem to be edited, deleted, etc and this way others can follow along if they like and contribute--or not.

This seems to indicate the Falck family has ties to Hermann von Balke? I attached as a source as there is information pertinent to several other profiles.

It is a bit difficult for me to puzzle all of the handwriting, so sharing for others to see. Top right, second "page".

https://media.geni.com/p14/00/39/95/61/5344486799c052ea/falck_via_e...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Balk

https://www.peter-hug.ch/lexikon/balk/02_0288

I cannot find a Geni profile for him, if others know of one? There are several other Balk, Balke, von Balk who seem possibly related. Interesting.

If anyone who has Falck, Falch, Falk, especially Hillevi or Eric, and would like to compare Gedmatch kits, please send me a message.

I know there is a surname project on FTDNA, which I joined this week, but it does not seem to have had any activity in several years.

Perhaps we could find some patterns mapping our matches? Worth a try if enough people are interested.

Frälsesläkter i Finland intill stora ofreden / 106 (1909-1916) [MARC] Author: Jully Ramsay notes the wife of Erick Falck's full surname was Arvidsdotter Store. Geni also references this in his Master Profile, and from what I can see, this book seems a generally respected one which used primary sources rather than hearsay.

I added as a source to Kerstin's profile. Her profile is locked, so up to curators if you wish to add anything regarding Store as a surname. It seems worth mentioning in her bio, but again, I am not able to add to the bio as it is locked to prevent bad merges, etc.

Will continue to see if anything can be found. Maybe she had an earlier marriage to a member of the Store family? Or something else which has not been discovered and is causing confusion or more than one person to be combined now or in the past.

I have no problem with a standard of primary sources. I'm looking for parish records along the lines.

The book itself can be viewed, if that is part of the concern.

https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/viewer/861574/?offset=8#...=

Is one place you can see the actual book

I mentioned Runeberg as those links and the text were in the bio for Ericus Falk.

Screenshot here from his profile so you can see what I am talking about. Within his MP yGeni currently states he was married to Kerstin Arvidsotter STORE and references the same text I have here.

I'm trying to get clarity and consistency.

Is the Frälsesläkter i Finland intill Stora ofreden an acceptable SECONDARY source?

I understand it does NOT clarify which Store father Kerstin was born from.

Hope this helps!

Here is the screenshot:

https://media.geni.com/p14/bd/c2/74/75/53444867a2aca40b/screen_shot...

Full book is here. I did not realize FamilySearch only offered partial.

https://litteraturbanken.se/f%C3%B6rfattare/RamsayJ/titlar/Fr%C3%A4...

I really don't understand this "Runebergs books". As far as I know there is no source written by Runeberg regarding this. What book and source is referred to?

Regarding the name:

Hillevi is a form of the name Helwig /in Old Swedish helewigh. In Latin Heluighis, in German Heilwig.

Sometimes persons with the name Helwig have been called Hedwig, but that is a different name with different roots.

Example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvig_of_Holstein

So we can assume the names Helwig/Helvig/Heilvig and for that matter Hedwig are very old names.

I assume it's Ramsay's book.

Thank you Reidar Holmsen. I did also cross check for a few variations of Hellvig while searching different locations where I know old records to be found. I wonder if this daughter may have had a different name and Hillevi was only part of her name? For example, could she have been Britta Hillevi or something along those lines? (I made this one up, just to use as an example).

Would think this would still be a "hit" in the databases, but may simply be any official records for her existence have not been added and are only in paper records still.

Yes, I think Bo-Arne is referring to Ramsay's book. That is why I provided a few ways for him to examine it. Clearly any reference book can have flaws, but I am wondering why it would automatically be considered wrong because it was published in 1909? Why would a modern book be inherently better?

Again, I understand this does not prove Kerstin's parents. I'm only suggesting it as a source for the surname of Store.

Also, Store and Sparre are two different families, right?

I'm not making the point that Ramsay's book says her surname was Store, so let's automatically assume everything falls neatly into place, and voila, mysteries are solved.

I'm a bit of a hardass for proof, actually. :-)

I write this as a parentesis, but it's important to understand the different layers of debate and confusions in the genealogy of some of the famlies - it's a layer spanning hundred of years.

Anrep was researching and publishing a lot of genealogical litterature. Among this was the 'official' nobility records 'Sveriges Adels och ridderskap'.

As in all research there are flaws, mistakes and errors. But Anrep is a well reputed geneaologist.

The same goes for Elgenstierna who publshed extensive research and books.

Both published sort of standard works.

Some relationships between persons and families were difficult to sort out. Families might have been connected both agnatically and cognatically. Sometimes 'family names' were not used and sometimes heraldry gave confusing information.

An example of this is the so called 'Store' family. (Store probably meaning mighty or powerful.)

Anrep published and Elgenstierna sorted out some of Anrep's probable mistakes. So we have to keep this in mind when people are using these sources.

Other sources use Anrep and/or Elgenstierna. Adelsvapen for instance seems to use Elgenstierna.

(Runeberg is a writer but the Runeberg project is a name for a Swedish site that publishes digitized versions of older books.)

--------
The Store family used the heraldic chevron over star.

In Swedish ' Sparre över stjärna'.

Several families used a chevron i. e. 'Sparre'.

https://www.adelsvapen.com/genealogi/Store_nr_79

https://sv.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Store_(%C3%A4tt)

The heraldic chevron was used by different families and the Store blazon comes from a combination of the chevron with the star from a marriage with the Pribeca family. (There were also other families also using a star.)

https://sv.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Prika&wprov=rarw1

Thank you so much for this Reidar Holmsen very helpful and informative.

I'm working in a few languages and backgrounds fairly close in with my research, so it is a true challenge to keep everything straight, and I enjoy learning from everyone here. This is a quest for the truth for me. I want the accounts here to be correct, if possible, but selfishly I want to know my actual ancestors. It is fine with me if they were these people, or if they were tenant farmers or something else entirely. Accuracy that matters to me.

I was aware of several families using Sparre, but I am glad you called attention to this. I should have taken more care and written exactly what I was referring to here.

If HIllevi never existed, or her name was something else entirely, this is also something I can hold possible in my mind. Genetic genealogy suggests I have a very good connection with Falk/Falch, and this family in particular, not just the broader surname. While not a standard of proof for a project like Geni, knowing this serves as personal motivation for me to continue.

Feel free to ignore this, I am just trying to work out some sort of logic with the dates imvolved surrounding "HIllevi" and my own path.

Ericus Falck MP
Swedish: Biskop Eric Falck, d.ä.
Gender: Male
Birth: circa 1510
Linköping, Östergötland County, Sweden

Believed to be the father of Hillevi, and sources note his date of birth in the mid 1510s, and not late 1400s as many people have "shifted" in order to make "Hillevi"'s birth work.

Hillevi Eriksdotter Falk
Gender: Female
Birth: circa 1516
Stockholm, Sweden

possibly mother of:

Per Eriksson Skute
Gender: Male
Birth: 1535

confirmed via accepted sources as the father of:

Anna Stiernfelt (Persdotter Skute)
Gender: Female
Birth: 1580
Linköping, Sweden

I have a fairly solid paper trail leading down the rest of my path once we reach more modern times and I am able to locate household, marriage and other similar records online.

The main flaw I am stuck with here remains the dates for HIllevi and her suggested parents, and any proof of Hillevi as a person beyond people saying she existed. Her suggested date of birth is completely acceptable with her having been the mother of Per Eriksson Skute. And/or the wife of

Erik Persson Skute
Gender: Male
Birth: 1500
Linköping, Östergötland, Sweden

I feel as though the "proof" we have so far is on pretty shaky ground when we reach "HIllevi."

Also:

Hillevi is supposed to have been born when her father was in Stockholm or Uppsala from what I am reading as an explanation of her existence. Hillevi's bio here reads:

"Erik Falck hade en dotter Hilavi Eriksdotter Falk som gifte sig med Erik Persson Skute, Borgmästare i Linköping, f: 1500 i Linköping, d: 1586 i Linköping. Rådman i Söderköping. Därav "skutarna", OBS!!! det är maken som var född 1500, inte Hillavi. Hennes födelsedatum ligger mellan 1516-1518, de år då fadern var verksam i (Stockholm) Uppsala."

I can see Ericus Falck was in Stockholm in the 1560s. I am at a complete loss as to how he could have possibly been doing anything in Uppsala in 1516-1518 when he would have been a very small child???

Can anyone offer an explanation? Another Erik Falk/Falck/Falch who could be HIllevi's father? Or is this just more of the mental gymnastics involved in shifting Ericus Falck birthdate back to the 1470s?

Thank you!

Thank you for making the list!

The quote above was added by someone to the geni-profile. Someone who tried to lay the same puzzle as we do now. As we see, it would have been useful with more facts.

But we must have in mind that this puzzle is a very, very old one. Clever and ruthless minds were working to erase, kill and twist something and erase the existence of some persons back then. In the 1500:s and most probably also in the 1600:s.

It's connected with power struggles, religion and greed. The consequences for the losers in this /these fights were not just loss of their own lives but also their relatives and their posessions and eventually also being erased from history.

Generations after, people have tried to solve this puzzle. Sometines drawing wrong conclusions and adding confusion.

We can't expect a quick and swift solution. But perhaps we can find new sources eventually.

We may never know, but I think at the breaking point withe the Skute & Falck, the players seem well-known enough there is a chance a marriage record, birth record, land transfer, something survived which might nudge us closer. I will keep working laterally as well.

One interesting thing I noticed a bit farther up the paths, and kept thinking about while on my walk today...

Anna Von Klingspor was the long time maid of Maria Eleonora. Can any of you shed any light on this relationship? Everyone in my immediate family who was "Swedish" was deceased before I was 10 years-old, so there is a lot I simply do not know culturally speaking, and I apologize if I say something absurd while trying to figure this out. I do know with other parts of my background this is generally a role that might be given to a cousin or someone otherwise close to the family, and not a random person plucked from the crowd. Can I assume something along the same lines here?

Does anyone know how Anna Von Klingspor

who is the sister of Brita Kugelhielm Birgeri

who is in turn the great grandmother of "Hillevi" Brita Kugelhielm Birgeri → Anna Stiernfelt (her mother) → Per Eriksson Skute (her father) → Hillevi Eriksdotter Falk (his mother)

gained such a position, if it was not through a family connection?

Hopefully this train of thought also makes sense and does not muddy the waters even more.

They' e already a swamp....hehe.

(I did see in Riksarkivet where letters exist regarding Anna 's role with Maria Eleoora, but I believe they are special request and need to be ordered. I have considered doing so, but they probably only mention her position, and nothing that solves anything of interest here.)

I noticed there is also a lot of debate and discussion farther up the "food chain" as well involving connections to the Vasa & the alleged (disproven from what I have read here and elsewhere) mother of Peder Mattsson Upplänning.

Your comment Reidar about power made me think more of this. I'm honestly not trying to make this discussion even more of a tossed salad! :-)