Adelaide de Soissons

Adelais/Adelaide/Adelisa seems to have been a daughter of Count Gilbert and first married Guy de Vermandois, Count of Soissons c. 960 (he died c. 989) before secondly marrying c. 992 Nocher, count of Bar-sur-Aube. The Acta Sanctorum stated (translated from Latin): "Nocher, son of Achardus" married in 992 "Alaide, countess of Soissons, daughter of Count Gilbert, wife of Guy de Vermandois, and mother of Rainaud Count of Soissons..."

According to Charles Cawley, http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/chambarsein.htm#NocherIBarAubedieda...:

"The Acta Sanctorum commentary on the life of Saint-Simon de Valois, based on an undated manuscript of the abbey of Saint-Claude, records that "Nocherius seu Nocherus, Achardi filius" married in 992 "Alaidem comitissam Suessionensem, filiam comitis Gilberti, viduam Guidonis Viromanduensis, et matrem Rainaudi comitis Suessionensem"[12].

However, Cawley continues, "According to Europäische Stammtafeln[13], she was Adelisa Ctss de Soissons, daughter of Guy Comte de Soissons & his wife ---. [Note from Curator: This would position her a generation lower.] It is uncertain which version is correct, but as noted below under Renaud Comte de Soissons there are indications that the Acta Sanctorum version provides a more credible explanation of events."

CURATOR'S NOTE Renaud's parentage is somewhat uncertain. He was either:

1. the son of Guy I de Vermandois and Adelisa comtesse de Soissons
2. the son of Adelisa comtesse de Soissons (daughter of Guy I de Vermandois) and Nocher I de Bar-sur-Aube
3. the son of Adelisa comtesse de Soissons (widow of Guy I de Vermandois) and Nocher I de Bar-sur-Aube

Although interpretation of the primary accounts is open to some interpretation, medievalist Charles Cawley feels that it appears most likely that he was the son of Guy de Vermandois and Adelisa (Adelaide, Aelis) comtesse de Soissons, prior to her subsequent marriage to Nocher I comte de Bar-sur-Aube. However, French wikipedia (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_comtes_de_Soissons) positions Renaud as the son of Nocher.

For this reason, we will give him both fathers until a more definitive solution to the problem is resolved.

The name of Renaud's wife or wives is uncertain. Often reported as being Aelis/Adelaide de Roucy, daughter of Eble I and Beatrix de Hainault, this account conflicts with her marriage to Hilduin IV Seigneur de Ramerupt (d. 1063) unless Rainaud married her first (c. 1020) and then she married Hildouin and mothered his children. But if Renaud continued living, why would she change husbands?

Medievalist Peter Steward offers the following commentary in a 2011 post:

Peter Stewart <psssst@optusnet.com.au> Subject: Re: Renaud, Comte de Soissons, d. 1057. Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 1

First, there are only two men named Nocher who are known to have been counts of Bar-sur-Aube - the first of them was living between October 1010 & October 1011 when he subscribed a charter of the bishop of Autun along with his namesake son (who became his successor within the following decade), his wife Adelisa and his brother Fulco, bishop of Soissons. This charter has been misdated to 1003 in many 19th/20th century works, following a mistake of Ernest Petit that has been carelessly ascribed to Jean Mabillon or Edmond Martène.

The date matters in that genealogists following Maurice Chaume have invented an earlier Nocher (supposedly father of the first above) who is often taken to have been the count married to Adelisa of Soissons and living in 1003.

The early generations of the Bar-sur-Aube family are obscure - a Norman named Achard is said to have been the founder of La Ferté-sur-Aube, apparently ca 925/40, and the Nocher living 1010/11 (husband of Adelisa, brother of Bishop Fulco) is said to have been his son or descendant ("Ex his Nocherius comes Suessionum egressus traditur"). Nothing is known to fill in the evident chronological gap between these generations, hence the invention of another Nocher as son of Achard.

The charter of 1010/11 was subscribed by two Nochers, father and son, by Adelisa and then by a Renard who is assumed to have been another son of hers since the next known count of Soissons was named Renard or Renaud ("S. Notcherii comitis. S. Notcherii filii eius. S. Adelise comitisse. S. Raginardi").

However, he was not mentioned as one of her sons in the document known as "Charta de advocatis cellae Firmitatis ad Albam", a genealogy of the first comital family of Bar-sur-Aube. This was printed in Acta Sanctorum where it is described, following Pierre-François Chifflet, as taken from an ancient codex of Saint-Oyend abbey in the Jura ("ex veteri codice Ms. S. Eugendi Jurensis"). Chifflet had actually found it in the collection of the Bouhier family in Dijon, and it later passed with the library of Clairvaux (bought by a later Bouhier) to the municipal library of Troyes, now part of the Médiatèques de Grand Troyes (unfortunately it is not yet digitised).

This manuscript by various hands, compiled over about 300 years, was catalogued in the 19th century as Bouhier E83, and the genealogy (on folio 6) was written in the 13th century. So much for the chronological gap and the missing family member(s): there is no firm basis to believe, as some have assumed, that this document is authoritative and was directly connected to St Simon, count of Valois, who inherited Bar-sur-Aube and then became a monk at Saint-Oyend in 1077. It may have been a later paraphrase of some record made in his time, but more probably it was written in the 13th century - perhaps by a monk from Bar-sur-Aube visiting his home priory's parent house in the Jura. Anyway, it is far from being iron-clad evidence for or against the parentage of Renaud, count of Soissons.