Isabel de Say, Heiress of Clun

There were two women named Isabel de Say, both daughters of an Helias de Say, who are conflated. The other woman is Isabel de Say, Lady of Clune. Please see Darrell Wolcott: Henry, the Forgotten Son of Cadwgan ap Bleddyn; http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id117.html. (Steven Ferry, April 5, 2020July 22, 2024.)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Isabella de Say (c.1132-1199) was an Anglo-Norman heiress. Isabella was the only surviving child of Helias de Say upon his death in 1165; Helias was the third lord of Clun, a powerful Norman stronghold in Shropshire, England, along the Welsh border. She is notable for helping to create the powerful medieval house of the Fitz Allans. Isabella married William Fitz Alan, the lord of nearby Oswestry, as his second wife in 1156. William died in 1160, leaving a son by his first wife, Christiana, William Fitz Alan II. Isabella passed Clun Castle to him. The combined lordship of Oswestry and Clun was a significant power in the borderlands with Wales.

Isabella had married Geoffrey de Vere II, brother of the earl of Oxford by early 1166. After de Vere's death in 1170 she married William Boterel, probably by 1175, the year her stepson William reached his majority. She was certainly married to him by 1188. Isabella's death date is disputed, but she probably lived to 1199.

A charter of Isabella's to Wenlock Priory in Shropshire, purportedly issued on her deathbed, granted the church and chapels of Clun to that monastery. Her grant was confirmed by her third husband William Boterel,

References

Eyton 1860, p.45.

Eyton 1862, p.45.

Brown, p.93.

Brown, p.93.

Dugdale, et al., Monasticon Anglicanum, vol. V, p. 76, num. iv Bibliography Brown, Reginald Allen. (1989) Castles from the Air. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-32932-3. Dugdale, William, John Caley, Sir Henry Ellis, Bulkeley Bandinel (1819) Monasticon Anglicanum vol. 5 Eyton, William. (1860) Antiquities of Shropshire, Volume XI. London: John Russell Smith. Eyton, William. (1862) "The Castles of Shropshire and its Border." in Collectanea Archæologica: communications made to the British Archaeological Association Vol. 1. London: Longman.

www.wikitree.com

Isabel (Saye) de Botreaux (abt. 1135 - abt. 1199) Isabel "Baroness of Clun" de Botreaux formerly Saye aka FitzAlan, de Saye, de Vere Born about 1135 in Clun, Shropshire, England ANCESTORS Daughter of Elias (Saye) de Say and Unknown (Unknown) de Saye [sibling%28s%29 unknown] Wife of William FitzAlan — married 1153 in Shropshire, Englandmap Wife of Geoffrey de Vere — married 1163 [location unknown] Wife of William (Botreaux) de Botreaux — married 1170 in England DESCENDANTS Mother of William FitzAlan, William (Botreaux) de Botreaux and Emma (Botreaux) Valletort Died about 1199 in Ewyas Lacy, Herefordshire, England

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Profile last modified 24 Sep 2020 Created 25 Jun 2016 Last significant change: 24 Sep 2020 20:55: Michael Cayley added Medieval Project WikiTree as manager for profile of Isabel (Saye) de Botreaux (abt.1135-abt.1199). Medieval Project Isabel (Saye) de Botreaux is managed by the Medieval Project. Pre-1500 certified? Join: Medieval Project Discuss: MEDIEVAL Biography She was the wealthiest heiress in Shropshire at the time of her marriage to William FitzAlan.

Isabel (married 2nd c 1166 Geoffrey de Vere, married 3rd c 1188 William Boterel, died c 1199). [Burke's Peerage]

The following is copied from the website, maintained by Chris Phillips, entitled: "Some corrections and additions to the Complete Peerage":

Isabel was the daughter of Elias, not Ingram, de Say, and married the first William FitzAlan (d. 1160), not his son William, who died in 1210. Their son and heir William died about Easter, 1215. For a fuller account, see below.

Eyton, in Antiquities of Shropshire [vol.7, pp.211-253 and elsewhere; 1853-60], gave a very detailed account of the early FitzAlans. In the reference cited above, J.H. Round corrected the early part of Eyton's work, dealing with Alan FitzFleald's ancestry. However, for the following generations, Eyton's account remains both fuller and more accurate than later work [cf. Sanders, English Baronies, pp.70, 71, 124, 391, 392 (1960); Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants, pp.515, 680, 860 (2002)].

In the following summary, I have included references to source material only for points omitted or contradicted by the later writers (and in one case for an addition to Eyton's account).

1. Alan FitzFleald, who married Aveline de Hesding.

2. William FitzAlan, their son and heir, who married 1stly Christiana, neptis (niece or kinswoman) of Robert Earl of Gloucester, and 2ndly Isabel, daughter and heir of Elias de Say, lord of Clun [Isabel is described as the daughter of Elias in a 12th-century narrative from the cartulary of Lilleshall Abbey, printed by Dugdale, Monasticon, vol.6, p.262, cited by Eyton, vol.9, p.358]. After William's death in 1160, Isabel remarried, before 1166, to Geoffrey de Vere (d. 1170) and, before 1188, to William Boterel; she died probably in 1199, and was survived by her third husband.

3. William FitzAlan, the son and heir of William by Isabel, who succeeded as a minor and apparently came of age in 1175. He married a daughter of Hugh de Lacy, Lord of Meath [Rot. Hundredorum, vol.2, pp.69, 76, 80, referring to land given to William FitzAlan with the sister of Walter de Lacy, cited by Eyton, vol.5, p.86, vol.10, p.126] and died in 1210 [Eyton, vol.7, p.244 citing the Annals of Dunstaple Priory; since printed in Annales Monastici, vol.3 (Rolls Series no 36; 1866)].

4. William FitzAlan, their son and heir, who succeeded as a minor, married Mary, the daughter of Thomas de Erdington, and died without issue, Easter 1215 [Eyton, vol.10, p.326, citing a copy of a letter from Thomas de Erdington to the king, referring to William's death at Easter and dated by Eyton to 1215 on internal evidence (Vincent's Collections, vol.3, p.98, College of Arms)]. Mary remarried to William de Duston, and both were living June 1220 [Curia Regis Rolls, vol.9, p.57].

5. John FitzAlan, his brother and heir, as given above.

(Note that Sanders gave an alternative reconstruction, in which the second William FitzAlan died 1212-1213 and was the grandfather, not the father, of William (d. 1215) and his brother John. But this is shown to be incorrect by the statement of a jury in 1223 that John FitzAlan's father, William, had been a minor in the custody of Henry II [Curia Regis Rolls, vol.11, p.69].)

[The error concerning the identity of the William FitzAlan who married Isabel de Say, and much of the evidence presented by Eyton, were pointed out by Joe Cochoit in April 2002. Peter Stewart pointed out the disagreement between Eyton's and Sanders's reconstructions in May 2002. Thanks to Cris Nash, Ian Fettes, Leo van de Pas, Rosie Bevan and Robert S. Baxter for many other helpful contributions during the ensuing discussion.]

Curt Hofemann, curt_hofemann AT yahoo.com, in a post-em, wrote:

It appears the name of her father was Ellis/Elias/Helias de SAY/SAYE & not Ingram/Ingelram:

(Ellis de Say) whose da. and h., Isabel, brought it (the Lordship of Clun in Shropshire) to her husband, William FitzAlan [Ref: CP II:335 as corrected by CP XIV]

CP V:391 states "...Isabel, da. and h. of Ingram de Say..." Isabel was the daughter of Elias, not Ingram, de Say... Isabel, daughter and heir of Elias de Say, lord of Clun [Isabel is described as the daughter of Elias in a 12th-century narrative from the cartulary of Lilleshall Abbey, printed by Dugdale, Monasticon, vol.6, p.262, cited by Eyton, vol.9, p.358]. [Ref: Some corrections and additions to the Complete Peerage, FitzAlan (of Oswestry), Volume 5, page 391: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol3.shtml]

As I have noted, after 1160, Guy le Strange, Sheriff of Shropshire was appointed to administer the Fitz Alan estates and Eyton gives many examples of entries by him with regard to these estates. In 1165, Geoffrey de Vere married Isabel de say and became lord of Clun in her right. This is recorded in the Liber Niger and numerous financial entries. Her third husband, William Boterell, would also become Baron of Clun in her right. William II Fitz Alan (her son) is not recorded with regard to Clun until 1203, after her death. She actually died in 1199 so presumably William FA (FITZALAN) was baron of Clun from 1199-1210.

Beginning in 1166, Geoffrey de Vere began receiving income from the Fitz Alan estates. This continues until 1170 when Eyton notes "Geoffrey de Vere died; but credit is taken for his full annuity out of the Fitz Alan estates up to Michaelmas. The word habuit is however used instead of the word habet in respect of the lands which had furnished the said annuity and which he had ceased to hold."

All this clearly shows that Isabel de Say, Lady of Clun married Geoffrey de Vere and that she is the same as the Isabel de Say who married William Fitz Alan (d. 1160). [Ref: Joe Cochoit message to soc.genealogy.medieval 19 May 2002]

Isabel Say, daughter and heir of Helias de Say, Lady of Clun, niece of Robert Say, Earl of Gloucester. [Ref: The Ancestors of Homer Beers James: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~pmcbride/james/f019.htm#T55]

married 1st: William FITZALAN (no date given) [Ref: CP V:392, Holloway p10, Watney p391] (Holloway = "The Genealogy of Mary Wentworth, Who Became the Wife of William Brewster" by Naomi D. Holloway 1969 LDS Film 1738313)

married 2nd: Geoffrey de VERE before 1166 [Ref: Some corrections and additions to the Complete Peerage, FitzAlan (of Oswestry), Volume 5, page 391: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol3.shtml]

married 3rd: William BOTEREL before 1188 [Ref: Some corrections and additions to the Complete Peerage, FitzAlan (of Oswestry), Volume 5, page 391: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol3.shtml]

she died probably in 1199 [Ref: Some corrections and additions to the Complete Peerage, FitzAlan (of Oswestry), Volume 5, page 391: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol3.shtml]

Sources Mosley, Charles, editor. Burke's Peerage, Baronetage & Knightage, 107th edition, 3 volumes. Wilmington, Delaware, U.S.A.: Burke's Peerage (Genealogical Books) Ltd, 2003. Oxford Dictionary of National Biography Eaton Genealog The Gorman Family of MA