Margaret de Toëny

MARGARET (-1185 or before).

• Eyton highlights that Margaret, wife of Walter [I] de Clifford, "is said, with probability, to have brought him Clifford Castle in frank-marriage, she being a daughter of Ralph de Toni, Domesday Lord of that castle"[1646]. Eyton implies, but does not actually state, that there is no primary source which confirms that this supposed parentage of Margaret is correct. He also says that "an equally probable account of the mode in which Clifford Castle left the sucession of the Toni is that Maud, wife of Richard fitz Ponce, was a daughter of Ralph de Toni". The chronology is not particularly favourable for Margaret to have been Raoul [IV] de Tosny´s daughter.
• Raoul´s children must have been born in the range [1104/15], given his marriage in 1103 and the narrow possible birth date range of his wife in [1073/76]. If Margaret was Raoul´s daughter, she would have been old when she died in or before 1185, and her husband even older when he died in 1190 assuming that he was about the same age as his wife.
• Let us compare this assessment with the approximate dates which can be assessed for the children of Walter [I] and his wife. Firstly, the couple´s grandson Walter [III] first appears in the records in 1208, presumably when he was a young adult, which would place his birth to [1180/90]. At that time, his father Walter [II] would have been over 40/50 years old if his maternal grandfather had been Raoul de Tosny. Secondly, Walter [I]´s great-granddaughter, granddaughter of his daughter Lucy, was probably born in [1190/96]: she was reported an infant on her first marriage in 1197, and her father died in [1196]. This would place Lucy´s birth in [1140/50], which would be on the late side if her maternal grandfather had been Raoul de Tosny (although not impossibly late). Thirdly, when these two cases are slotted together, it appears that Lucy was very likely older than her brother Walter [II]. If that is correct, the Tosny connection is even less likely, given her estimated birth date, if she was one of her parents´ older children.
• Another point to make is the absence of compatible onomastics for a Tosny marriage: none of Walter [I]´s children received typical Tosny names (Raoul/Ralph, Roger, Isabel, Adelisa, Godechilde). Walter [I]´s grandson was named Roger, but it is likely that he was named after his maternal grandfather (see UNTITLED ENGLISH NOBILITY).
• A last point of confusion is the reported marriage of Isabelle, another daughter of Raoul [IV] de Tosny, with another Walter FitzRichard (who is probably identified with the son of Richard Lord of Clare and Tonbridge, see above). If Margaret had also been Raoul´s daughter, this would lead to the improbable (although not impossible) coincidence that two of his daughters married two different individuals with the same name.
• In conclusion, the alleged Tosny connection of Walter [I] de Clifford remains something of a mystery but the proposed Tosny parentage of his wife Margaret does not appear to be the ideal explanation.
• m WALTER FitzRichard de Clifford, son of RICHARD FitzPons & his wife Matilda --- (-1190).]

Foundation for Medieval Genealogy Medlands

Margaret de Tosny

• b. 1109,
• d. 1185
• Father Radulf II de Tosny b. circa 1078, d. circa 1126
• Mother Alice of Huntingdon b. circa 1072?

Margaret de Tosny was born in 1109 at Northumberland, England. She was the daughter of Radulf II de Tosny and Alice of Huntingdon.

Margaret de Tosny married Walter, 1st Lord Clifford, son of Richard fitz Ponce, circa 1135.

Margaret de Tosny died in 1185 at age 76 years.

Family: Walter, 1st Lord Clifford b. circa 1113, d. 1190

Children

• 1. Walter, 2nd Lord Clifford+ b. c 1140, d. 1222/23
• 2. Richard de Clifford b. c 11421
• 3. "Fair" Rosamund de Clifford+ b. c 1146, d. c 1176
• 4. Lucia de Clifford b. c 11481

Citations

• 1. [S603] C.B., LL.D., Ulster King of Arms Sir Bernard Burke, B:xP, pg. 122.

  ---

Margaret de Toeni [1]

• F, #104861,
• b. 1118,
• d. 1185
• Last Edited=12 Nov 2007

Margaret de Toeni was born in 1118 at Flamstead, Herefordshire, England.[2] She was the daughter of Ralph de Toeni and Alice de Cheney.[2],[3]

She married Walter fitz Richard fitz Pons, son of Richard fitz Pons and Maude fitz Walter.[1]

She died in 1185.[2] She was buried at Godstow, Oxfordshire, England.[2]

Children of Margaret de Toeni and Walter fitz Richard fitz Pons

• 1. William de Clifford [3]
• 2. Richard de Clifford [3]
• 3. Amicia de Clifford [3]
• 4. Rosamund de Clifford+[3] b. c 1137, d. 1176
• 5. Walter de Clifford+[3] b. c 1150, d. 22 Jan 1222

Citations

• 1. [S35] Peter Townend, editor, Burke's Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Landed Gentry, 18th edition, 3 volumes (London, England: Burke's Peerage Ltd, 1965-1972), volume 1, page 579. Hereinafter cited as Burke's Landed Gentry, 18th ed.
• 2. [S125] Richard Glanville-Brown, online <e-mail address>, Richard Glanville-Brown (RR 2, Milton, Ontario, Canada), downloaded 17 August 2005.
• 3. [S35] Peter Townend, Burke's Landed Gentry, 18th ed www.findagrave.com

Margaret De Toeni BIRTH 1118 DEATH 1185 (aged 66–67) BURIAL Godstow Abbey Ruins Oxford, City of Oxford, Oxfordshire, England MEMORIAL ID 27264002

Family Members Parents Ralph IV De Toeni 1078–1125

Spouse Walter de Clifford 1113–1190

Children Rosamund de Clifford 1137–1176 .