Sybil Marshal, Lady de Say

Not a known daughter of John Marshall, III & Aline de Rie

Stirnet identifies her only as "Sybil", no family name attached. The line of John, older brother of William (the) Marshal, is relatively poorly documented.

Biography

https://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p1495.htm...

Sibyl Marshal married Sir William de Say, Constable of Rochester Castle, son of Sir Geoffrey de Say, Magna Charta Baron and Hawise de Clare, circa 1230; They had 2 sons (Sir William; & John) and 4 daughters (Alice, wife of William de la Forde; Hawise, wife of Sir John le Marshal; Agnes, wife of Sir Alexander de Cheney; & (unnamed), wife of John de Sudeley, 1st Lord Sudeley).2,3,4

Sibyl Marshal died after November 1253; Her ancestry is unclear.5,2

William de Say remarried to Mary (unknown). No issue of his second marriage. Mary, widow of William de Say, remarried to Robert de Ufford.

Family

Sir William de Say, Constable of Rochester Castle b. b 1209, d. c 12 Feb 1272

Children of William de Say (d. 1272) and his 1st wife, Sibyl, were:

1. (Miss) de Say+1,6,3,4. Married John Sudeley.
2. Agnes de Say+7,8,1,9,3 b. c 1250. Married Alexander de Cheyne.
3. Hawise de Say+1,2,3 b. c 1253, d. a 1318. Married John Marshall.
4. Sir William de Say+1,3 b. 20 Nov 1253, d. b 16 Sep 1295. Married Elizabeth.

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Genealogy

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3P-S.htm#Wil...

• Geoffrey [V] & his [first wife] had one child:
  • a) WILLIAM de Say (-before 12 Feb 1272). Complete Peerage quotes an undated charter under which "Galfridus de Say filius Galfridi de Say et Alicie de Cheinnei uxoris sue" confirmed the donation to Bermondsey of the advowson of Birling church made by Walkelin Maminot (see above), and cites a later confirmation by "William de Say, son of Geoffrey, son of Geoffrey"[494]. No proof has yet been found about the identity of William’s mother. … m firstly SIBYLLA, daughter of -- (-after Oct 1250). "Willelmus de Sai filius Galfredi de Sai" confirmed the donation of "ecclesiam de Berlinges" to Bermondsey made by "Walkelinus Maminoth predecessor meus et Galfridus de Sai avus meus…et Galfridus de Sai pater meus", for the souls of "mee et uxoris mee Sibille", by undated charter[498]. m secondly as her first husband, MARY, daughter of --- (-after 10 Aug 1280). She married secondly (before 12 May 1273) as his first wife, Robert de Ufford. William & his [first] wife had one child. As William’s second wife had children by her second husband, the chronology suggests that William’s son William must have been born from his first marriage, but this is not beyond all doubt:
    • i) WILLIAM de Say (20 Nov 1253-16 Sep 1295 or before). A writ dated 12 Feb "56 Hen III", after the death of "William de Sey" names "William de Say his son age variously stated as 18 on the feast of St Edmund the King last, and 19 on the same feast, is his heir"[499]. m ELIZABETH, daughter of --- (-after 1295). William & his wife had one child:
      • (a) GEOFFREY de Say ([1278/81]-before 3 Mar 1322). He was summoned to parliament 1313/21, whereby he is held to have become Lord Say. - see below.

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Disputed origins

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Marshal-32

Sibyl has previously been shown on WikiTree as daughter of John Marshal, one of the "Illustrious Men" of the Magna Carta who were King John's counsellors, and Aline de Rie. No good source has been found for this, and if, as Douglas Richardson states[1], her father was said to be a John Marshal of Lenton, Nottinghamshire or Linton, Kent, that points to his being a different John Marshal.

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References

1. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3P-S.htm#Wil... shows no parents for Sybil or daughters of William de Say.
2. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISH%20NOBILITY%20MEDIEVAL2.htm#... “ ROBERT de Ufford, son of --- (-before 9 Sep 1298). He had interests in Ufford, Suffolk[522]. m firstly (before 12 May 1273) as her second husband, MARY, widow of WILLIAM de Say, daughter of --- (-after 10 Aug 1280). ”
3. https://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p1495.htm... Cites
   1. [S16] Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, 2nd Edition, Vol. III, p. 497-498.
   2. [S4] Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry, Vol. III, p. 287.
   3. [S4] Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry, Vol. IV, p. 562-563.
   4. [S4] Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry, Vol. V, p. 84-85.
   5. [S11568] The Complete Peerage, by Cokayne, Vol. XI, p. 473, notes.
   6. [S16] Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, 2nd Edition, Vol. IV, p. 135.
   7. [S15] Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, p. 690.
   8. [S16] Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, 2nd Edition, Vol. III, p. 422.
   9. [S4] Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry, Vol. IV, p. [S16] Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, 2nd Edition, Vol. III, p. 497-498.
   10. [S4] Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry, Vol. III, p. 287.
   11. [S4] Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry, Vol. IV, p. 562-563.
   12. [S4] Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry, Vol. V, p. 84-85.
   13. [S11568] The Complete Peerage, by Cokayne, Vol. XI, p. 473, notes.
   14. [S16] Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, 2nd Edition, Vol. IV, p. 135.
   15. [S15] Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, p. 690.
   16. [S16] Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, 2nd Edition, Vol. III, p. 422.
   17. [S4] Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry, Vol. IV, p. 456.
4. WikiTree contributors, "Sibyl (Marshal) de Say (abt.1213-)," WikiTree: The Free Family Tree, (https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Marshal-32 : accessed 03 September 2024). Cites
   1. Douglas Richardson. Magna Carta Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, 4 vols, ed. Kimball G. Everingham. 2nd edition. Salt Lake City: the author, 2011, Vol. III, p. 497, SAY 2, < GoogleBooks >. See also WikiTree's source page for ‘’Magna Carta Ancestry.’’
   2. “Sybil wife of William de Say” discussion Oct 16, 2019 < link >
5. https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00139395&tree=LEO shows no parents for Sybil. Cites:
   1. [S00058] Doubleday, H.A. & Lord Howard de Walden, The Complete Peerage, 1936 . 11:470
   2. [S00010] Burke, Sir Bernard, A Genealogical History of the dormant, abeyant, forfeited and extinct peerages of the British Empire, London, 1866. 476